Archery.... is there a need for further change?

ben tarrow

Well-known member
a coach isn't allowed to charge a few quid to cover his outlay.
Coaches ARE allowed to charge for their services. Change in insurance a couple of years ago.
Things like coaching do seem to be very much franchised out to the lesser organisations like clubs and counties with very little guidance from AGB, so your access to coaching does seem to be something of a postcode lottery depending on where you live and whether your club/county are able to offer said coaching.
Things are improving, but painfully slowly. I do think AGB could take guidance from other sports on how to get a consistent coaching offering in place from grassroots. Its not enough just to train L1s. Those L1s need more support in how to deliver and WHAT to deliver.
 

geoffretired

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davd8n, once again I find myself agreeing with you. SO, what I have said several times now is we need different options for different types of interest in archery.
A designated group to manage elite archers. another for club archers and club archery PnP may get into some clubs.... it does not necessarily have to be run from outside. If there are places where PnP is run from outside, they mat even find they can help each other. In the same way that clubs may feed on some Elite prospects.
 

dvd8n

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Coaches ARE allowed to charge for their services. Change in insurance a couple of years ago.
Things like coaching do seem to be very much franchised out to the lesser organisations like clubs and counties with very little guidance from AGB, so your access to coaching does seem to be something of a postcode lottery depending on where you live and whether your club/county are able to offer said coaching.
Things are improving, but painfully slowly. I do think AGB could take guidance from other sports on how to get a consistent coaching offering in place from grassroots. Its not enough just to train L1s. Those L1s need more support in how to deliver and WHAT to deliver.
It's good to know that the insurance issue has changed.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Ben, I see what you are saying and agree with some of it.
Extra money for clubs might be better replaced with lower prices for joining AGB.
Clubs can share some indoor venues to keep costs down.
I wonder how many archer would want to be a member of a bigger club than the one they now attend. Some really small ones I guess. But why are those clubs so small anyway? Not all could sustain a larger membership.
Lion, more clubs in archery deserts would be a great idea. First find a venue with prospective archers. I am not aiming that at you doing all that. I can think of an organisation that might.
How much of what we are discussing, is actually going to spread anywhere when those who posted get to their respective clubs?
I will be feeding back to the club at the next committee meeting.
 

ben tarrow

Well-known member
Ben, I see what you are saying and agree with some of it.
Extra money for clubs might be better replaced with lower prices for joining AGB.
Clubs can share some indoor venues to keep costs down.
I wonder how many archer would want to be a member of a bigger club than the one they now attend. Some really small ones I guess. But why are those clubs so small anyway? Not all could sustain a larger membership.
Lion, more clubs in archery deserts would be a great idea. First find a venue with prospective archers. I am not aiming that at you doing all that. I can think of an organisation that might.
How much of what we are discussing, is actually going to spread anywhere when those who posted get to their respective clubs?
I will be feeding back to the club at the next committee meeting.
Geoff
Sadly AGB are not going to reduce their prices.
I've often wondered how it works for clubs to share facilities. Anytown Archers and Anytown Toxophilites join forces to share their local school sportshall. AA have 10 members charge £2 per week but have no other facilities and no equipment. AT have 20 members, charge £200 per year, have a good stock of club equipment, coaching and a field during the summer. The sportshall costs £100 per weekend.
How many AT members will switch to AA because its so much cheaper, despite the better facilities, coaching, equipment?
Should each club pay half of the sportshall fee? After all, its 2 clubs.
Should AT pay more because they have more members and more money?

My own club is in a predicament where we're verging on being too big for our (hired) indoor facility, but we dont have a big enough membership to be able to afford our own indoor range without significantly increasing subs. With double the membership, we could probably afford our own place, but we dont have room for our membership to build to that level. Catch 22. Council funding goes to the football clubs because there are far more of them.

Finally for now, you speak about more clubs in archery deserts.
One thing that makes my blood boil is the number of people who say "I've got access to a big field where I shoot"
Its never a case of asking their local club if they want to come and shoot with them on their big field. A case of "I'm alright Jack!"
 

geoffretired

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Hi Ben,
Two clubs sharing an indoor venue may pay in a ratio that matches the number from each club using the venue.... would that be fair?
Members switching clubs... would they not do that if they felt like it ; whether an indoor venue was shared or not?
I know the little club where I shoot gets a few members from a much bigger club nearby. They move because we are smaller and it is simpler for them to do the sort of shooting they want.
If I could be magically taken to all the clubs within 100 miles I would probably stay where I am no matter what the facilities elsewhere. They could not offer me anything I do not already have available to me. Good mates and a chance to shoot, with very little disturbance.
That does not mean I don't want the club to improve. But improve for reasons that are a benefit to what we want from and for the club.
 

geoffretired

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16 people have posted on this thread, a couple only once. That's not a lot of archers considering the numbers on the forum.
Some strong views, and that's good. Some opposite views from mine; and that's good too.
A few responses have pointed out that they like field shooting better than boring target shooting. I think it is good that they have found a type of archery they like. I know archers who liked the atmosphere at the club where I shoot but have gone over to field shooting because they like that more. Liking one type of shooting more than another does not make the one they like less, bad/wrong. Perhaps they found target archery stuffy, but that is not universal in target archery clubs. The nature of the actual shooting is different, but that is the way it is. One is repetitive and the other isn't; we make our own choices even though we are sometimes restricted by what is available nearby.
 

dvd8n

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16 people have posted on this thread, a couple only once. That's not a lot of archers considering the numbers on the forum.
Some strong views, and that's good. Some opposite views from mine; and that's good too.
A few responses have pointed out that they like field shooting better than boring target shooting. I think it is good that they have found a type of archery they like. I know archers who liked the atmosphere at the club where I shoot but have gone over to field shooting because they like that more. Liking one type of shooting more than another does not make the one they like less, bad/wrong. Perhaps they found target archery stuffy, but that is not universal in target archery clubs. The nature of the actual shooting is different, but that is the way it is. One is repetitive and the other isn't; we make our own choices even though we are sometimes restricted by what is available nearby.
Don't forget cost too. I like both my AGB target club and my field club but it's quite stark that my AGB/target club fees are about FOUR TIMES my field club fees, and it's hard to see what I'm getting from AGB for the extra money.
 

geoffretired

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Hi dvd8n, yes that is also a consideration. I think someone pointed out that sometimes the travelling can add to their costs, but I suppose they may not live close to a target club so things can even out or not as the case may be.
I am curious about field archery being so less costly than target. Is that something to do with the running of field archery association being much less complex, than AGB?
 

LionOfNarnia

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I'd hazard a guess that one of the reasons for the differential is that target clubs have to hire sports halls for ~ half the year, an expensive but necessary indulgence due to our less-than balmy winters.
 

dvd8n

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I don't know about field clubs in general, I can only comment on mine and why it is cheaper.
  • The umbrella organisation (NFF) was specifically set up to be as minimalist as possible, providing little beyond communal insurance, so there is almost no bureaucracy to support.
  • There are no intermediate organisations (regions, counties) to also support.
  • Being a field club, we can shoot on marginal grounds, not big expensive flat fields. The ancient wood that we shoot in, being an SNH site of scientific interest, is of no developmental use so SNH rent it to us at a peppercorn rent in order to engender community links. I think that it helps them to have a sitting tenant on the property also.
  • As club treasurer I make it my mission to minimise the funds in the club accounts. We exist to provide archery facilities, not to build a bank account.
 

dvd8n

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I'd hazard a guess that one of the reasons for the differential is that target clubs have to hire sports halls for ~ half the year, an expensive but necessary indulgence due to our less-than balmy winters.
Yes, partly. It's a sobering thought that you can hire a wood for 24/365 access (pretty much) for less money than a sports hall for one evening a week.
 

Graham Smith

Active member
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I must say that I sometimes feel that AGB is kind of like a cellphone company or ISP in that it cares more about attracting new archers than retaining the ones that it has.

AGB is encouraging of it's big-weekends and have-a-goes but as far as the established archer is concerned it's pretty much competitions and that's it. If you're not a competition person then you pretty much get your club night and that's it.

The one obvious thing that AGB could do better is coaching but I kind of feel that AGB is almost self-sabotaging in this respect. They offer coaching courses but they are pretty expensive plus the candidate needs to finance their board and lodgings. So becoming a coach is a serious financial commitment and as an extra little **** you a coach isn't allowed to charge a few quid to cover his outlay. Plus there seems to be (or used to be, or there was a perceived attitude that) coaching/advice shouldn't be offered but should be asked for. While I can see the rationale for this, you can easily end up with people shooting for years with no more knowledge than they came out of their beginner's course with. For instance I was recently asked what I was doing when I was adjusting my button. Fair enough; I explained, but this wasn't a beginner asking me - it was someone that was an established member when I started shooting about ten years ago! How do you shoot for over ten years without finding out what your button's for? Easy. Nobody told him. And I only knew by reading books and watching YouTube videos and sorting out the good information from the bad myself - not from anything AGB did. So people stagnate, become jaded, take an evening off, a week turns into a month, a month into a year and without thinking about it they're ex archers.

I know that individuals organise coaching sessions and the like for their clubs and I applaud them but I really think that AGB should be way more proactive in getting coaching into clubs.
I couldn't agree more with your comment about established club members not knowing a lot more than they did after completing their beginners course. A few weeks ago I had an archer at our club, who is a coach and a committee member ask me what tiller was. He has been shooting at the club since before I joined and I've been there four years.
I asked the chairman about training new members on bow tuning and was told that if someone wanted to know something they should ask. If they don't ask then it's not the clubs responsibility.
One reason I'm leaving!!!
 

Big George

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Our club has taken steps do more than just shoot. Over the four weeks in a month we have a “fun competition” - we’ve had valentines night, Christmas special, all sort of themed but not that serious. There’s a week were you can work with a coach on your technique and a week we’re you can talk to a coach about bow and arrow set up/tuning. We also have a monthly competition which is handicapped leading to a head to head night to finish the indoor season. It gives people to opportunity to work on whats useful to them, have fun or just shoot as they want. How it works long term with new members developing will be interesting to watch, current members are making use of the options available.

for ArcheryGB maybe they could borrow from other sports and have weekends were top coaches are available to work with you at a venue. You’d need to book a place to manage the numbers and it could be structured to cope with different levels of experience. Perhaps counties could be the coordinators for that sort of event.
 

geoffretired

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Big George, your post sounds like you shoot at the same club that I do.Even the fun events match, and the head to head.Only the details are different.
Archers working with top coaches sounds good but it would be more productive if it was continuous as opposed to a one off session. session. A one off session usually means the archer forgets everything before they get a chance to use their newly learned form.
Perhaps top coaches working with club level coaches would give a better spread of good ideas that could be used with club archers on a regular basis.
 

Big George

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Archers working with top coaches sounds good but it would be more productive if it was continuous as opposed to a one off session. session. A one off session usually means the archer forgets everything before they get a chance to use their newly learned form.
Perhaps top coaches working with club level coaches would give a better spread of good ideas that could be used with club archers on a regular basis.
I had been thinking back to when I did athletics. There would be weekends when top coaches came along and both local athletes and the coaches would attend the sessions. Athletes got direct coaching and the coaches learnt new/different coaching techniques. The longer term was covered by the coaches being able follow through with any changes they wanted to make long term with their athletes. It’s not quite the same for archery as most archers don’t really have specific coaches working with them week in week out. I do think having the top coaches coaching would give a trickle down effect.
 

dvd8n

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Big George, your post sounds like you shoot at the same club that I do.Even the fun events match, and the head to head.Only the details are different.
Archers working with top coaches sounds good but it would be more productive if it was continuous as opposed to a one off session. session. A one off session usually means the archer forgets everything before they get a chance to use their newly learned form.
Perhaps top coaches working with club level coaches would give a better spread of good ideas that could be used with club archers on a regular basis.
I'd argue that most club level archers don't need a top level coach to come in, break down their form and rebuild it over a period of months. What they need is a mid level coach to come in, correct a few bad habits, maybe with some video equipment and the like that a club doesn't normally have. Or help someone with target panic. Maybe also teach them to tune their bows, make a string, fetch an arrow, that kinds of thing.

And yes, I think coach training should be free. Maybe not open to everyone, it would be necessary to weed out badge collectors and the like, but definitely free.
 

geoffretired

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dvd8n, I am losing count of how many times I find myself agreeing with you. Heehee
I read your posts and immediately think, you sound like me, in the sense that we think about the same things the details and bigger picture.
As for the mid level coach coming in and doing the things you mention; I would have said the same things a few years ago. I have done string making sessions, bow tuning sessions, fletching sessions etc etc. They were well attended in the past, but these days more and more archers are not interested. Many are not interested in buying a string and having it posted to them; they visit the shop and get it fitted with a nocking point.
Their archery gear is like their mobile phone; a complete mystery. I find that way of thinking slightly irritating. I shouldn't as it's not my archery; it's theirs. But I see the enjoyment I got from doing the things myself and feel they are missing so much. Well, they are missing something, but it isn't anything they would value.... they would get involved themselves if they did.
The archers of today are slowly changing in their attitudes towards their archery. They are brought up to live in their world; I was brought up to live in mine. We often share the same spaces as each other; and even the same hobbies, but not in the same ways.
Does archery need to change? Yes! It won't all be a benefit for me, so I would not change the same things they would.
 
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