Border customer service disappointing

DougieH

New member
Anyone that has read my previous posts will have seen I was a huge Border fan. Not any more.

My HEX4H bottom limb collapsed at full draw at the Sussex Champs. In my opinion the limb delaminated in the mid layer which forced the inner layers to pop inwards, away from the outer layers, causing a compression fracture. The outer layers looked fine.
Phoned Border, explained the problem, was asked when I bought them, 18 months ago, out of warranty was the reply. I suggested they should last longer than 18 months. We don't know how you treated the limbs was the reply. I said I looked after them. That's what they all say was the reply.I asked if they wanted me to send the limbs up so they could have a look. I thought that would have been the first thing they wanted. They said yes. All that was on offer at this point was the 20% discount on any new limbs (not sale items), that all direct buyers get, no matter how they treated their limbs. Now I don't know what everyone else thought a fair outcome would be, but that was not it as far as I was concerned.

In the interim, I emailed a couple of photos up so they might get an idea of what happened. I phoned again and asked if they agreed with my thinking. No they did not think it was a glue fail, possibly a carbon fail but probably would be unable to say for certain even after inspecting the limb. We then had a bit of a discussion on the Sale of Goods Act 1979, consumer rights, etc, then his tone got a bit heated. Then he said There's bugger all in this for me, this is a waste of my time and he then said he would give me a deal. Half my money back. I said I thought that was a fair deal for both of us and also stated, as it was a fair deal, I would not post our conversation on line. Then he said I don't care if you do, as Borders reputation is so strong, one persons complaint would not affect it. As it happened, I knew another 2 Sussex archers that had Border limbs break within a week or two of mine going.

All I wanted a was a fair deal. If the refund had been offered from the start I would have bought another set of limbs from the Sale list and would still have been a fan. But having my honesty doubted, told I was wasting his time and my complaint was of no consequence, has ensured my meagre limb funds will not be contributing to Borders profits again.

Doug
 

Stash

New member
Have to go with Border on this one. A warranty is a warranty. They have to draw a line somewhere and a year seems reasonable - any factory defect would likely have shown up well before that. You were well over the year.

If you didn't like the 1 year warranty, you shouldn't have bought the limbs. If you weren't aware of the 1 year warranty, your fault for not checking before buying.

Sounds from your story that you really annoyed the person you were talking with. You got a more than fair offer, should have taken it without the implied threat of negative publicity.
 

Nightimer

New member
Then he said I don't care if you do, as Borders reputation is so strong, one persons complaint would not affect it.

Oh dear,those words are very dangerous to say.
He obviously has not heard the saying "a good reputation takes years to get and seconds to lose".
Archery is a very small sport and people talk and word gets around,customer service and satisfaction should be PARAMOUNT with ANY company.
Yes, you were outside the warranty period by 6 months,but you would expect limbs to last a bit longer than 18 months.
I had a compound riser fail after 14 months,the retailer said sorry outside warranty.
This was before e mail so I wrote to the manufacturer in the USA,a few weeks later I had a reply.
It said "we expect our risers to last a bit longer than 14 months so we have instructed the retailer to strip another bow and rebuild yours with a new riser FREE OF CHARGE'.
THAT is customer service (I went on to buy 3 more of their bows over the years).
 

BorderBows

New member
I dont know why people insist on saying they will post or not post online. Any solution we try and find with a customer shouldnt be seen as a bribe to get the customer to act in any way or to extort a solution from the retailer. Your voice online is your freedom. The resolution was to try and answer problem the customer has had.
Mention " going online" with us and you will get a poor reply. And 100% of the time the doors will close.
We have not made hex4 for years. So without knowing the details i assume these were closeout sale limbs. With one year support on them.
Our warrenty is 100% first year. 50% cover second year and 25% 3rd year. On full product. Sale product comes with a limited 1 year.

We have been flexable on our aftercare if my assumptions are right, and i appolgise for any off tone on the call you had.
Its not nice when you extend your aftercare and then meet a potential threat. Im sure you can see why. But with all said and done. We will still stand behind the offer given.
 

darthTer

Active member
Supporter
Ironman
American Shoot
If your car develops a fault & its outwith warranty, would you still expect to either get a discount on a replacement, or 1/2 your initial purchase price back???

I'm with Border on this!!!

The limbs were outwith the standard warranty & its unfortunate that they have failed but that's life. Border appear to have offered a reasonable solution, which the OP didn't like & tried to effectively blackmail them into improving the deal.

I will admit that I know the folk @ Borders, and I also know the pride they take in there work - they don't like failures of any kind....but where do you draw the line??? the warranty policy is clearly set out for all buyers before purchase and I think their terms are more than fair. I would certainly never try to blackmail a manufacturer simply coz I didn't like the extended warranty terms.
 

BorderBows

New member
DougieH

Am I right in the following.

you bought the limbs in the sale at 180 pounds.
there was a 1 year warrenty with them.

after 18 months they failed

we first offered you 20% crash replacement discount out of good will which we offer to Full customers and not sale customers.

this entitles you to 20% off full list price of new limbs. and an example of this would be an approx. ?600 list price at 20% = ?120 off list price. that's close to full money back in your case, this solution seemed reasonable to us since we don't/cant make hex4s any more, hence the closeout.

you declined this offer.

our counter offer to try and achieve customer satisfaction, that you accepted, was 50% money back. we have a refund reciept of ?95 here.
this offer means we took your 1 year warrenty (sale item) and out of good will, we extended you to full warrenty due to the situation you found yourself in.

on Wednesday you acceped this offer.

you concluded your acceptance of the offer with "I wont go online with this"
to which we said in essence, feel free, say what you like since we feel we have been fair in our view...

to which you thank us with this public bashing?
this kind of post is exactly why we see "going online" threats as a very negative nasty action that we don't care for in ANY way.

If anyone wishes to express their opinion online, they are more then welcome. Forums are great places for everyone to express their opinion

if anyone wishes to use public space as a means to boost their position in a negotiation. The door will soon become a one way affair. We are simply NOT interested in people who wish to use threats as a means of doing business.

This will remain our company policy for as long as we are a management group.
we will also try our best to make sure people are treated fairly and we can only hope people are respectfull enough to treat us the same way.

http://www.borderbows.com/uploads/2014 04 28 Border Sale Stock List.pdf.html

on our sale list it does say "please contact us for terms and conditions of sale"
simply because they are not our usual terms

in our view, you had 2 offers of good will above and beyond your "rights" under the terms of sale.
 

DougieH

New member
Stash. In my opinion, 18 months is not well outside warranty.

As to threat of adverse publicity/ blackmail- the refund was offered, I accepted the offer and stated- because it was a fair offer I would not post online. It was their final comment that changed my mind. IMO the cause was a manufacturing fault and as such the SOGA 1979 covers me for up to 6 years (5 in Scotland I think). I was asking if it was possible to say one way or another if it was a manufacturing fail (as opposed to having obviously damaged limbs which they were not) and Sid said probably not. I also acknowledged that the burden of proof was on me to prove the cause of the failure. I still think the 50% refund was fair to both sides.
 

darthTer

Active member
Supporter
Ironman
American Shoot
Stash. In my opinion, 18 months is not well outside warranty.

As to threat of adverse publicity/ blackmail- the refund was offered, I accepted the offer and stated- because it was a fair offer I would not post online. It was their final comment that changed my mind. IMO the cause was a manufacturing fault and as such the SOGA 1979 covers me for up to 6 years (5 in Scotland I think). I was asking if it was possible to say one way or another if it was a manufacturing fail (as opposed to having obviously damaged limbs which they were not) and Sid said probably not. I also acknowledged that the burden of proof was on me to prove the cause of the failure. I still think the 50% refund was fair to both sides.
If that's the case, why take the issue online in the manner that you have????
 

DougieH

New member
Sid, do the words bugger all in this for me, this is a waste of my time, and your final comment about Borders reputation being so strong etc etc ring any bells. I feel I only got the refund due to you getting a bit heated and to get rid of me. Not as part of a customer satisfaction solution.
 

Tuck

New member
You buy close out limbs with a limited warranty , get an offer in addition outside of warranty, and then do this?
Words fail me (at least ones that can be used on a public forum)
 

Batfink

Member
DougieH, please at least tell me you didn't use the all telling phrase 'Not Fit For Purpose'?

I have to say, whilst it may have been handled better by Border with regards to their choice of words, if the quotes are true. I am firmly with them on this and they went way above and beyond what they needed to.
 

BorderBows

New member
Sid, do the words bugger all in this for me, this is a waste of my time, and your final comment about Borders reputation being so strong etc etc ring any bells. I feel I only got the refund due to you getting a bit heated and to get rid of me. Not as part of a customer satisfaction solution.
To be upfront, your talking to Sid Jnr. You spoke to my dad i beleave. (also Sid)

i dont know the way the conversation went, which is why i stated my appology.

There is nothing like getting chapter and verse of Government regulations to make an unfortunate situation where your trying to be generious, feel like a situation you dont want to be in.
 

Valkamai

Member
Sorry, but I can't help but feel that this should be addressed in private with the supplier/manufacturer not aired on a public forum especially when an agreement has apparently been reached.

Sent from my GT-I8160 using Tapatalk 2
 

Phil Reay

New member
Doug, when i bought my limbs (Hex5) I was told that in the first yr there was 100% guarentee (money back) and in the 2 yr, there was a 50% and the 3rd yr 1/3 back. not sure what the problem is there, but don't blame you going elsewhere if that is the service you received. I will admit, i sold my Hex5s on as they did not really suit my bow and went to W&W and am really pleased with them
 

woodsplitter

Member
Supporter
Ironman
American Shoot
Stash. In my opinion, 18 months is not well outside warranty...
18 months is 50% more than one year. That's well outside in my book. As someone said, a warranty is a warranty and the seller has to draw the line somewhere. The seller is entitled to draw the line at one year. Up to 3 months (25%) over would, in my opinion be very good service. Where would you draw the line?
I have a car with a 5-year warranty. I wonder what I'd be told if I kept it for 7 1/2 years and then asked for something to be fixed under warranty.
 

DougieH

New member
Sid Jr. Sorry I thought it was you I spoke to the second time. That explains the way you worded the offers. When the 20% discount was offered, i explained that as i had looked after my limbs which he seemed to doubt, I was then offered the same deal as someone who had ran over their limbs in their car. I said if that was the only deal on offer I would have to walk away as I couldnt afford new limbs even with the discount. And I know that is not Borders problem, it was just the way it is. That is why I asked if he could do a deal on HEX5s in the sale. He said no. I then asked if a deal on a set of CXBs would be possible. That was when he got angry, said theres bggr all in this for me. This is a waste of my time then said I will do you a deal , 50% of your money back. It was said in an aggressive manner, not so much offered to me as thrown at me. There was no suggestion of customer satisfaction or care involved. I never asked for a refund. If an offer of ?95 towards a set of sale HEX5s or an offer of ?50 towards a set of CXBs had been given I would have accepted it and still been a customer. It was at this point I said about not posting online and then in the same tone he said about Borders reputation and implied my complaint was of no consequence. That changed my mind.

Just to be clear, this was not a warranty dispute. I was asking the question could it have been a manufacturing fail. And no, Batfink I didnt say that. In the end it came down to how I was treated as a customer with a complaint.
 
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JohnK

Well-known member
Others have already said their piece, so here's mine:

You bought close-out limbs with a limited warranty. Had you approached Border non-confrontationally and asked "Can you help me with a new set?" then you would undoubtedly have had a generous discount on a new set. In fact, they already offered you that: 20%.

Clearly you decided to badger and moan instead, thus setting up a confrontation. Sid - understandably frustrated - tried to defuse the situation by giving you an even better deal. To then say you won't take the discussion online because you've got what you wanted is both high-handed and utterly unnecessary. In short, you sound like a bully. Frankly, if I ran an archery shop I'd show you the door and never sell to you again.

Others have tried to sabotage Border's reputation online, and they continue to go from strength to strength. Frankly you've just embarrassed yourself, and made any retailer who has read this very wary of dealing with you. Well done.
 

Mark31121

Member
Ironman
. IMO the cause was a manufacturing fault and as such the SOGA 1979 covers me for up to 6 years (5 in Scotland I think).
That's 6 years to make a claim - i.e. to take a company to court if they refuse to comply with the law (which isn't the issue here as Border went above their terms of sale). It doesn't mean that whatever you buy should last 6 years, else every manufacturer/retailer of washing machines, computers, tv's, phones, sofas etc etc would have gone bust years ago...
 

Timid Toad

Moderator
Staff member
Supporter
Fonz Awardee
Ironman
That's 6 years to make a claim - i.e. to take a company to court if they refuse to comply with the law (which isn't the issue here as Border went above their terms of sale). It doesn't mean that whatever you buy should last 6 years, else every manufacturer/retailer of washing machines, computers, tv's, phones, sofas etc etc would have gone bust years ago...
And it is for the complainant to prove it was a manufacturing fault or faulty materials. That would involve a qualified professional's written opinion.
 

DougieH

New member
JohnK. I was non confrontational at all times. Unless asking questions is being confrontational. Can you explain to me how you come up with 'clearly badgering and moaning' comes from asking for a better deal than the 20%. Then suggesting two options heading less and less in my favour, but keeping me happy and still a customer, then he loses it and throws a refund at me that I never asked for.


I would suggest you re-read my posts as you have a wrong sequence of events. And as for the bully comment, laughable.

- - - Updated - - -

JohnK. I was non confrontational at all times. Unless asking questions is being confrontational. Can you explain to me how you come up with 'clearly badgering and moaning' comes from asking for a better deal than the 20%. Then suggesting two options heading less and less in my favour, but keeping me happy and still a customer, then he loses it and throws a refund at me that I never asked for.


I would suggest you re-read my posts as you have a wrong sequence of events. And as for the bully comment, laughable.
 
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