Archery clubs and inclusive names.

ben tarrow

Well-known member
Bimble: They're all "Police Officers" now, for exactly that reason.

Everyone else: If it doesn't bother you because you are male...you are just showing how the world has always been skewed in your favour, and you don't even see it. This might be a tiny thing, but it's part of a much bigger picture.
To put this in context, I was asked recently whether it would bother me if I moved to a different town where the only archery club was called "Sometown Ladies Archery Club"
I guess at some level it would, because I'm not a lady and the name does suggest that its only open to ladies, but ultimately, if I want to shoot, thats where I'd have to go, and I wouldnt expect the club to change its name just to accomodate me.
 

Timid Toad

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To put this in context, I was asked recently whether it would bother me if I moved to a different town where the only archery club was called "Sometown Ladies Archery Club"
I guess at some level it would, because I'm not a lady and the name does suggest that its only open to ladies, but ultimately, if I want to shoot, thats where I'd have to go, and I wouldnt expect the club to change its name just to accomodate me.
Exactly this.
And of course it's not just archery. And it applies if there is only one or a majority of the "wrong" gender, because someone always throws up the word Tradition. So it has been expected that we shut up and get on with it. Which has turned into the assumption that we don't mind.
Time to stop thinking there is any "wrong" gender, and just be inclusive, even if it does mean a bit of paperwork. There would be positives too: Local publicity would be wholly positive. AGB would love the club to bits. Membership would increase.
 

KidCurry

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Okay.... so the inference here is that the name 'Sometown Gentleman's Archery Club' is no different from 'Bowmen of Sometown'?
 

geoffretired

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I am glad that these ideas are being put forward. I have no problem with changing our club's name. I may need to persuade others, though.
There are a few comments in this thread that, that I feel miss the point.
Change the name.... and club numbers will increase. That sounds a little like a bribe; like a good reason for changing the name.. If I was a female; and I felt the club had changed its name to attract more members.... I would think it wasn't done for equality but for financial gain. The treatment of the ladies may remain unchanged... and if it was less than ideal before, it may even get worse afterwards.
The reason for changing the name should be for equality; end of!
It is interesting that one of our founding members is female.
 

Timid Toad

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I'm thinking that other genders are discouraged from joining a club that has Bowmen in the title. Change that and you will become inclusive, hopefully not just in name - it has to be a mindset running throughout your club that probably is already there and it's just a stupid title that prevents people seeing what you have to offer.
 

geoffretired

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Hi TT yes, what you say, is what I feel. It will close a loophole in our presentation( if that is the right word)
What I said in my last post is that mentioning " increase in numbers" is not a good reason for changing the name. It is like a bribe to the ones who want to keep the old name. We should want to change the name because it is "unfair" for want of a better word.
If clubs really need more members they should be looking at more than a name change.
 

Kernowlad

Supporter
Supporter
I often compare archery to golf or 10 pin bowling.
Where I live, archery is an amateur sport, played on rented grounds or sportshalls, with probably no more than 100 players across 3 clubs.
Golf and 10 pin bowling are far more professional, with "proper" clubs with their own grounds and facilities that welcome anyone and everyone. Once you've paid your green fees there are no "you have to complete a beginners course" type of restrictions to participation. There are clubs where you can just turn up and "pay and play" at virtually any time of day.
Archery is, as you describe Geoff, run very much for the benefit of the current membership who see growth as a potential for "crowded shooting lines" rather than potential for expansion and extension; where beginners courses are a mandatory restriction to participation, but those same beginners courses are the monopoly of the clubs who only run courses to suit themselves.
If we as an archery community really want more participation, we have to find ways to make our sport more available to people who dont want to "dedicate" themselves to our sport, with pay to play facilities - and that starts with the governing body making that possible, as well as having clubs and volunteers who want to offer the hand of participation to folk who just want to have a go, but when THEY want to, not once a year at the local fete.
And before you ask, yes, my club offers single beginners lessons, every week, to anyone who wants to come and play. An arrangement almost unheard of in archery circles.
I agree very much with this and it was the "shoot every single day but ONLY longbow or recurve" brigade that put us off target archery for life. All good when we were beginners with some very useful coaching but once we settled in, it was soon very clear that we weren't part of the very tight clique that didn't seem to like kids (my son, now 11 and I started together), compound bows or the "dip in and out archers" (who still paid the full and rather exorbitant AGB and club fees) that we were always going to be.

Meanwhile we discovered a field club that is really too far away for anything regular but was completely inclusive, very child friendly and laid back. Other field archers are interested in our bows (with stabiliser bars and target sights, mine clearly isn't a typical field bow), compare them in a positive way with theirs and are happy to chat about all aspects of archery rather than making us feel like naughty school kids.
The final nail in the target coffin was when shooting a Frostbite - I was first, beating even a very good compound archer. While they'd all congratulate each other non stop for the most minor of "achievements," not a single person said a positive word. It was clear I'd put noses out of joint and a wee bit of pride turned into frustration; partly because good scores were definitely a rarity for me. Plus my son was always out on a limb, shooting on his own. That was when we decided enough was enough; and yes the target club does have "Bowmen" in it's title!

This weird snobbishness kills enthusiasm. The old fashioned views, including clear sexism are harming the sport. It can be fun, rewarding and enjoyable but thanks to all too common dinosaur attitudes, too many are put off before we've really got going.

Thank goodness we "found" field archery!
 

Timid Toad

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Hi TT yes, what you say, is what I feel. It will close a loophole in our presentation( if that is the right word)
What I said in my last post is that mentioning " increase in numbers" is not a good reason for changing the name. It is like a bribe to the ones who want to keep the old name. We should want to change the name because it is "unfair" for want of a better word.
If clubs really need more members they should be looking at more than a name change.
You are of course right, but sometimes a little diplomacy can help: the dinosaurs won't be swayed by the argument of it needs to be changed because it's the right thing to do, because they just won't see it. But if you can find something to sweeten your cause, you just might win.
 

Kernowlad

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Mind you the lack of replies to any of my posts does suggest another degree of the cliqueyness I mentioned.
 

KidCurry

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But if you can find something to sweeten your cause, you just might win.
You may get an uptake if someone prepared a 'How to change your club name' information page. There are lots of things that need consideration such as bank accounts, insurance, registration, publicity/web presence, records and record paper trails, and probably loads more. I think most objections would be from people who do not know what is involved, or simply do not have the time. If AGB were the drivers I suspect it would work easier. But then AGB would need to make changes such as the addition of new classifications such as Bow woman/Master Bow woman etc which would be a good start.
 

geoffretired

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We are getting off topic in a way; but none the worse for it I am thinking.
When I started shooting, there was no internet. Archery clubs could be isolated from the rest of the world; and from each other. New members became members of a club; and each club was the result of how its members behaved( in the wider sense). Some clubs were close enough to others that local comps would allow some to see another example of an archery club. See the differences and possibly move clubs or even try to persuade their own to change.
If clubs can be very different from each other; why is that? My thinking is that there is nothing in place to prevent such differences. If a club is content to continue in the same way as before; it is easier to do that than make changes. What changes would they need to make anyway; they are happy with their lot. New members can " come and join us".... " this is what we do"........ take it or leave it.
What does seem"wrong" is that some clubs run beginners' courses where the beginners feel welcomed and supported, until they join. Then, the regulars don't share the welcoming nature of the coaches who ran the course. The beginners feel unwelcome. I found that some clubs are like that from reading posts on here.
The club where I shoot is not like that. I did however set up a system to make it more likely that all new members could be regularly helped so that no one accidentally slipped through the net. I volunteer to help and they volunteer to attend should they wish. I would have a lot more fee Saturdays if I just went shooting at the club instead. This is not me boasting; I only do it because I want to. I get a lot out if it; so there is a selfish ingredient in there. I can walk away whenever I want to.
Archery clubs can range from very easy to run; all the way to being a lot of work for a good few people and for a lot of hours.
Who decides what type of club is being run at any venue? Who decides that a club needs to change? Who is given the job of making the changes?
When I paid to take a coaching training course, I did so in order that I might be able to take out some of the " struggles" that I saw some archers going through. Struggling is so unnecessary when some minor changes can be explained/suggested.
I shoot my arrows when I get the time; I help others with their shooting. I am not a campaigner. Am I supposed to be?
Kernowlad, I am not ignoring your posts.
 

Kernowlad

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Exactly what we found Geoff. Good until we became regulars. I also attended their AGM and it was utterly depressing. No changes imminent at all, someone who is a die hard longbow guy and hates compounds was put in charge of training, someone else that openly doesn’t like kids was in charge of that exact aspect (not that there were any kids apart from my son) and so on. But the club fees were generating a healthy income so all was considered to be rosy.

It’s a shame because despite all this, there were some good people in it.


It’s hard to know if posts are being read if they get no acknowledgement (a reply or a like is plenty).
 

geoffretired

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Hi Matt,
You are right about acknowledgements.
There are times when threads generate a rush of replies; so fast you can't acknowledge them all. I only saw your post because a little message popped up that I had never seen before. Sometimes it is unclear who would be the one who " should" acknowledge a post.
Yet again, though, there is nothing in place that says all posts must be acknowledged. Should there be? By whom?
Well, I could say that it will be obvious and it is good manners.
That may be correct but these days, I notice more and more that texts can go unanswered despite the fact that they have been read. It seems that for many, the rules are that you reply if you need to; and don't if the message was understood. The writer is left to assume it was read and understood, if no reply follows. It all saves time.

I look at archery clubs a little bit like this. If your son brings back a friend after school to your house, and he stays for tea.... how would it go down if the friend, after finding out what you have planned to cook, says he doesn't like it cooked in a microwave; can you cook it on the hob instead?
Archery clubs may be busy places, comfortable /relaxing places; split into " two camps" places; energetic or sleepy.
Should they all be the same? Who says so? Should they all be the same as "what"?
 

KidCurry

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... someone who is a die hard longbow guy and hates compounds was put in charge of training, someone else that openly doesn’t like kids was in charge of that exact aspect...
I'm guessing the AGM went something along these lines...
Chair - Next item... Training Officer. Ok. we had one nomination... Jim. Jim... do you want to do it?
Jim - Hell no, I hate teaching
Chair - We don't have any other nominations. We can give you all the support you need
Jim - Can no one else do it this year? I've done it for the last five years
Chair - Well, most members arn't here.
Jim - Look, okay I will do it but only to keep things running.


I suspect the post for Child Protection Officer was similar but even more pressured, DBS checks aside. It's my experience most posts are filled by people who just want to shoot. The best way to change something is to get yourself on the committee. If you don't think your club is inclusive, it is probably the members who don't want to be. You probably won't change them. You will need to be the workforce to make the club inclusive or find another club.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
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Are there three types of committee members?
Those that will do the job if no one else will.
Those who say they don't want the job, but would not want anyone else taking it.
Those who volunteered because they like what they do.
I am one of the lucky ones; I am on the committee as club coach. If I was voted off the committee I would still do my coaching.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
There are clubs where you can just turn up and "pay and play" at virtually any time of day.
Archery is, as you describe Geoff, run very much for the benefit of the current membership who see growth as a potential for "crowded shooting lines" rather than potential for expansion and extension; where beginners courses are a mandatory restriction to participation, but those same beginners courses are the monopoly of the clubs who only run courses to suit themselves.
If we as an archery community really want more participation, we have to find ways to make our sport more available to people who dont want to "dedicate" themselves to our sport, with pay to play facilities - and that starts with the governing body making that possible, as well as having clubs and volunteers who want to offer the hand of participation to folk who just want to have a go, but when THEY want to, not once a year at the local fete.
@ben tarrow
Hi Ben,
Will you allow me to start a new thread to follow up on this idea?
Or would you start a new thread? I think it is a good topic for anyone in archery at the moment.
 

Kernowlad

Supporter
Supporter
I'm guessing the AGM went something along these lines...
Chair - Next item... Training Officer. Ok. we had one nomination... Jim. Jim... do you want to do it?
Jim - Hell no, I hate teaching
Chair - We don't have any other nominations. We can give you all the support you need
Jim - Can no one else do it this year? I've done it for the last five years
Chair - Well, most members arn't here.
Jim - Look, okay I will do it but only to keep things running.


I suspect the post for Child Protection Officer was similar but even more pressured, DBS checks aside. It's my experience most posts are filled by people who just want to shoot. The best way to change something is to get yourself on the committee. If you don't think your club is inclusive, it is probably the members who don't want to be. You probably won't change them. You will need to be the workforce to make the club inclusive or find another club.
Yep, spot on. I was tempted to offer (I have all sorts of DBS/security clearance, first aid training, etc) but my heart was already starting to doubt the way it was run and I knew I wouldn’t be there enough. We do so much other stuff and the clubs are so far away that’s it’s quite hard to commit too much. The field club seems happy for us to just turn up if and when we can with no clique issues at all.
As an aside, quite a bit of time is being dedicated to running this lovely little hill jaunt on 29th March. Just did 12 ascents of my local (very steep!) 60m hill. I’m broken... Lauberhornrun - Wengen - LauberhornRUN
 
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