Archery.... is there a need for further change?

Kernowlad

Supporter
Supporter
I can fletch, change points and nocks do a few bow tweaks but I’d struggle to re-string mine. Again some coaching wouldn’t go amiss.

Basically AGB needs to offer SOMETHING for its fees other than a rather dull magazine.
It needs to support the grass roots. The hobby archer. I’m not anti target shooting; I remember the joy of getting six arrows in the gold at 60yards and five in the yellow at 80. Being amazed at how accurate it was possible to be (on a rare good day) and if anything, the longer distances were more fun.
They laid a very good foundation for field archery but I feel the target experience for many turns sour once they become a “regular” archer. Add old fashioned cliquey attitudes and you have a fun sport being spoiled for the masses. Now I’m biased but I do feel our club missed one hell of an opportunity treating my son as an afterthought. He is patient, keen, strongand shot well when he started aged 8 (now 11). He received very little encouragement and like me, only enjoys occasional field archery now.
If this is also happening elsewhere, what a waste of potentially high level archers!
 
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geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Hi Matt, There were no compounds when I started shooting; no compound coaches, no internet. When I bought my first compound, there were no compound coaches, no internet as far as I was aware; I still managed to string my own compound, pull them apart and put them back again; with only the odd bit left over... to find a place for.
Archery clubs are where archery takes place; where clubs decide how they want things to be. Where archers with their diverse reasons for shooting come together to share the ground, the bosses and target faces. They share the costs of replacing the gear.They may share a joke or share their knowledge. For many, AGB is an option that they may not like, but they choose to join for reasons of their own. Possibly insurance.
I agree that coach training should be free; costs covered by AGB. I paid my costs because I wanted to be a coach it was not my club who funded me. It was not my club who wanted to have a coach. It was me; wanting something for myself. I wanted it so I could coach others.
There are clubs who have no coaches; they manage without. Some experienced archers make very good coaches despite having no certificates.
Some clubs have no coaches and pay a member to get qualified. NOT all who qualify make equally good coaches, even if they attended the same course at the same time. Humans come in varieties like chocolate assortments. BUt they are not boxed up by machines, putting the same mix in every box. Clubs all end up with an identity that is their own and of their own making. These mixes may or may not be at ease with each other.
If they are it may be pure accident. It may be planned to some extent by the way the club operates( some may be quite strictly run others can be very relaxed). BUt whatever they are like, they stay as they are, or get changed over time, by their members. Clubs have a lot of independence in how they operate. Volunteers are not like employees; you cannot tell volunteers what they have to do. Sometimes it isn't obvious what these volunteers do within the archery clubs... perhaps it is a massive amount or perhaps it is very little.
But take away the committee that is doing very little and then what?
I often hear or read that children / young people are the future of archery. I disagree. The future of archery is in the hands of those who are already in there doing the shooting and the committee work that no one else wants to do.
I have no doubts that many clubs could do a better job. We are trying to do a better job at the club where I shoot. All these "Better jobs" mean more work for someone; quite a few someone's actually.
 

Kernowlad

Supporter
Supporter
I suspect many target clubs are doing a better job. Our old one was financially fine so that seemed to show it was successful; which it was for a select few.
However the tone at the AGM showed that voices from outside the clique weren’t to be acknowledged. New members and children weren’t a priority. Once the beginners bit was done (and that was done well) that was it.

But we’re going around in circles and just like where you live isn’t good for surfing, this area isn’t good for archery. My nearest shop is two hours away. Our field club house is almost an hour; The woods are about 45 minutes. So we just muddle along. Fortunately our club woods and tournament locations are rather lovely.
 

Sinbad

Member
I know at my club (target), when someone buys new gear, one of the coaches/very experienced archers goes through the setup with them, to make sure that the bow is in reasonable tune for them, and they run coaching/tuning sessions around once a month for people who have tune or form issues. But they are always there giving advice and help if needed.

For me, part of the enjoyment is getting the bow tuned to me, it may be my age, but I like to learn how things work, and how to change the setup to best fit my form. I have stripped bows to replace cams/strings etc, and build my own arrows (I do tend to get them cut to my length by the shop I order from) but everything else I do for myself. For me it’s part of the sport. The same as helping setup the field.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Sinbad, it sounds like we have a lot in common. A sort of independence in our approach to archery. I think Cave Dweller's post shows that he is independent, too. To the extent where he does not want to have others shaping his learning. Good for him , I say.
How much, people want to find out from other people or other sources, is an individual thing. I pestered the life out of the experienced archers when I started archery. I remember things by first finding out, how they work. Asking others is often quicker than trying things for yourself. BUt wanting to do it myself afterwards is why I asked. When beginners don't ask any questions, it feels odd to me. When I coach I am always asking if there are any questions. Only occasionally does someone say yes. Nine times out of ten, once the question is asked, others say they always wanted to know about that, too.
Aren't people fascinating?
 

Emmadragon

Supporter
Supporter
AIUK Saviour
We're very lucky in our club - during the summer, every Tuesday is run as a coaching evening, where you can just turn up and be coached if you want to. There are around 10 coaches in the club, so there's always someone to help if it's wanted, and most of them are also very good at set-up and tuning. There's also a 'beyond beginners' course run semi-annually by our most experienced coach where he covers tuning, bow set-up and so on. Even in the winter, when there's no formal coaching night, any of the coaches are happy to answer questions on shooting days.
I do find there are some archers who just want to shoot, without any of the faffing about - my husband is one of those, but then he's very new to the sport, and still working on his 'basics'. I found for the first couple of years, I also wasn't interested in anything but shooting; being interested in all the other bits has come later. I just re-fletched my first arrow, and was thrilled at how easy it was, but I wouldn't have been interested this time last year (plus I got a fletching jig for Christmas, yay). I'm also perfectly capable of setting my own nocking points, but have no interest in building my own strings at this point. Although I do know enough to be extremely specific about how I want them built for me. I expect to learn more as I carry on.
I have experienced quite a lot of unwanted coaching, both from 'official' coaches and people who simply think they know better. The latter was one of the reasons I left my old club - I got fed up of being told I was doing it 'wrong' because my form didn't match the expected behaviour. And with a wide range of shoulder and arm injuries to accomodate, as well as sighting with both eyes, that was apparently just too much form change for some people to keep silent.
In contrast, it's so nice to be able to just think, 'hmm, something's not quite right, I wonder if someone else can spot something', and just wander down for a 'check-up' if I want, but there's no pressure to attend on a regular basis. It's more like a drop-in clinic than anything else.
We also have a lot of fun shoots, and in-club competitions. There are a number of archers who are really good, but just aren't interested in tournaments elsewhere, and those shoots tend to attract them.
We are also very lucky to have a really active committee, who encourage us to enter all sorts of tournaments, including in different disciplines like clout and field, even though we're technically a target club. One of the committee members draws up lists of all the local tournaments for all of us, and hands them out to anyone who expresses any interest. But it's an awful lot of work. I fully intend to volunteer for the committee at a future date, but I know that for my own health, I can't afford to do that until I retire. Then, both husband and I fully intend to go and be pretty much permanent fixtures down there.
I think a large club is better; it means that with a bigger talent pool, there are more likely to be committee members who actually want to be there, rather than just keeping on because no-one else wants to do it; it gives a much larger range of interests and therefore likely expertise; and it's far more likely that a member is likely to find other members with whom they've something in common, or at least are able to talk to on the line.
Sorry, that was a longer post than I intended!
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Thanks for that Emma. I do think bigger tends to go with busier; perhaps busy clubs can attract members because people like it that way .
Perhaps some clubs want to stay small and tend to be less busy and attract fewer members because of that.
I guess that in areas with very few archery clubs, there is little choice when it comes to finding one that matches your requirements.
 

Kernowlad

Supporter
Supporter
We shot at a lovely South Devon location last year and the club that ran it does both field/3D and target. Great facilities and a really nice bunch.
That would be ideal but sadly too many seem to be very much target only with no field element at all.
Field is more fun but you need target to get the fundamentals sorted and maintained.
 

Sinbad

Member
It is all down to what you want to get out of it. I enjoy having a laugh with the people at the club, helping fix and update things, trying to improve on a rounds previous score and the fun days break it up a little where all seem to have a good day no matter what you do.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
It is all down to what you want to get out of it.
I think you are right. One issue can be that some newer archers don't fully realise, at the start, what it is that will keep them going back. The first few weeks/months can be a really exciting time, lots to learn and lots to get better with. That level of excitement cannot be sustained, so there has to be something else to look forward to. The excitement I felt in my first few months is something I will never forget. I am still shooting after 38 years so it isn't the excitement that keeps me going back; it's something else.
 

LAC Mark

Active member
I've been following this thread, and it just makes me more proud of our club (laleham archery club), we have over 100 members, our own range (we don't own it but it's available to us all year round with bosses setup all the time), a good number of coaches, we run have a goes, beginner's courses, intermediate coaching sessions, junior coaching sessions, equipment training, fun shoots, one of our coaches is happy to do one 2 one coaching, couple of our coaches have done a disabilities adaption course, there's more but you get the idea.
It's generally a well run, fun place to be.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Lac Mark it does sound good!! I don't think anyone could ask for more, really. But I am sure that there will be people who want to improve things.
I am not saying that in a negative way. I mean there will be some who are always thinking ahead and trying to find ways to make things even better. In a way, that is normal; in the same way that some archers shoot pretty well yet still want to shoot better.
It is interesting that this thread has had relatively very few posts from archers who are pleased about their clubs. I find it hard to believe there aren't a lot more good clubs around.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Matt, I fully understand the attraction of field shooting. More variety and a different approach as a result.
I have been trying to get my head round the organisation of field archery.
From a total outsider's position it seems that clubs set up the venues.An association offers advice on setting up etc etc and also provide a level of insurance. Clubs seem to put on a lot of competitions open to visitors in order to make full use of the course. Do they also offer visitors the opportunity to just shoot for a range fee like visitors to a gold club?
 

LAC Mark

Active member
Lac Mark it does sound good!! I don't think anyone could ask for more, really. But I am sure that there will be people who want to improve things.
I am not saying that in a negative way. I mean there will be some who are always thinking ahead and trying to find ways to make things even better. In a way, that is normal; in the same way that some archers shoot pretty well yet still want to shoot better.
It is interesting that this thread has had relatively very few posts from archers who are pleased about their clubs. I find it hard to believe there aren't a lot more good clubs around.
Geoff, yes we're still looking for ways to improve and I'm sure it will happen.
It has been noted that other clubs in the area have falling numbers of membership, whereas we are growing, 4 years ago we had around 90 members, now it's around 130 I believe.
The lack of positive posts is what prompted my post.
 

Kernowlad

Supporter
Supporter
Matt, I fully understand the attraction of field shooting. More variety and a different approach as a result.
I have been trying to get my head round the organisation of field archery.
From a total outsider's position it seems that clubs set up the venues.An association offers advice on setting up etc etc and also provide a level of insurance. Clubs seem to put on a lot of competitions open to visitors in order to make full use of the course. Do they also offer visitors the opportunity to just shoot for a range fee like visitors to a gold club?
I have to admit, I don't know! Our club has a clubhouse with an indoor range of about 20 yards - we shoot 3Ds in that but I don't go often partly because it's an hour away. Nearer to home (but not much) is a very large wood which is run by the club but belongs to a wealthy landowner. We gather there on the odd Sunday weather permitting. The tournaments we've shot at have been club arranged at their usual "home" outdoor range; we must walk several miles per shoot! We shoot through trees (well around them), over lakes, across valleys, up to 80 yards, as little as 1-2 yards, high shots, low shots, all sorts.
I think what partly appeals after the endurance test of a 144 arrow target event in blazing sunshine, is that if you're any good, you generally shoot one arrow per target (36 targets in total for a tournament, we tend to shoot about 10 on a club day), maybe two. If you're having a bad patch you'll shoot a third but that's it - onto the next target.

Form goes almost out of the window as you're often standing on wonky ground shooting at all sorts of angles and you often can't clearly see the "kill" shot (24 points) clearly - you have to more or less made a good guess. So it's far less precise but with far more variety.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
A little side track.
When I first started work, the way of learning was mainly like this.Someone tells you what to do and you do your best to follow the instructions. If you make mistakes there is often a punishment, like do it again or do corrections three times each.
In some instances the job wasn't wrong, so much as " not good enough" You need to do better in future!
When I first started running beginners' courses, lots of the beginners would say "sorry" if they made a mistake and didn't manage to do something exactly as required. So, if there was a gap between their chin and draw hand they said they were sorry. They felt obliged almost to treat their mistake as a serious fault and feel that they were guilty of some wrong doing.There seemed to be a feeling they felt they were to blame.
It took a lot of inputs from me to try to get rid of the guilt and to let them freely try again.... no requirement to be spot on right away.
I am saying this because I think much of what we feel, when faced with someone asking us to change, triggers this feeling that we are being blamed for what they see as something that could be improved. We feel that our efforts were good enough for us; but are not good enough for them.
I am not blaming anyone on either side of that situation; it happens! I am saying that it can be a very sensitive area when asking for things to be changed... otherwise the effect can be " This not good enough for you, then?"
Accepting change when we feel "things were not broken in the first place" requires a lot of " looking at ourselves as others see us". I am not preaching either, I am struggling with this at the club where I shoot. My instinct is that I am right...." I've done it like this long enough."
I think I am getting better, though.... slowly.
 

Riceburner

Active member
From what I have seen over the years the archers who drop out tend to do so after about a year or two. Often they are a mix of archers who struggle, along with ones who do really well. It is difficult to keep enthusiastic when progress is poor, as it can be for some. They got " the hang of it" up to a point during their first few months but never really get much better after that. For those who make a good start, progress is good and so is attendance levels. Then the progress reaches a stage where most of the main ingredients have been learnt and the refinement stage is reached. That can be a really boring stage, as it takes ages for one thing and a lot of effort. What once seemed so natural and easy; is no longer the case.
I think this is where field archery tends to 'take over' in terms of interesting shooting. Before I started field and was shooting AGB, there wasn't much mention of other styles of shooting, until I happened to discover that another member of the club also shot field, he described it and I was instantly captivated and it didn't take me long (relatively) to switch.

If the club had been more knowledgable about field, and said - this is an option, go there while you also work on your form, I may well have retained the AGB membership and stayed with the target club. (I used to still shoot with them occasionally in winter, but only for practise).

Obviously that's just my experience, but I could easily see that it happening to others.
 
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