AGB Advice for returning to shooting 13/5/20

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Hi Ben,
You are right and I am mindful of that. I am not trying to avoid the safety requirement.
If AGB imagined every club would shoot on paper faces which I would guess could dislike being sanitised, then the safe thing is to take them home and one archer has one face and never touches other ones.
Would it be equally safe, to avoid putting up and talking down faces, which could involve accidental contact with a difficult to clean boss, if waterproof ones could be easily sanitised without damage to them and would remove the need to keep handing faces on the boss.
It involves fewer operations to be made and each of those carries some risk.
 

LAC Mark

Active member
Hi Ben,
You are right and I am mindful of that. I am not trying to avoid the safety requirement.
If AGB imagined every club would shoot on paper faces which I would guess could dislike being sanitised, then the safe thing is to take them home and one archer has one face and never touches other ones.
Would it be equally safe, to avoid putting up and talking down faces, which could involve accidental contact with a difficult to clean boss, if waterproof ones could be easily sanitised without damage to them and would remove the need to keep handing faces on the boss.
It involves fewer operations to be made and each of those carries some risk.
From a risk point of view wipe down faces are a god idea, bit it will only work if every archer follows the rules.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
From a risk point of view wipe down faces are a god idea, bit it will only work if every archer follows the rules.
Cheers for that. I was thinking that wipe downs would be safer. Fewer accidental touching the boss when putting on their own faces.
The other thing is, we want faces wiped before and after use, so cleaned twice before the next person shoots.
The boss will get airborne contamination once the boss is removed, we breathe while removing faces and when putting them on.
 

KidCurry

Well-known member
AIUK Saviour
AGB specified 'archer brings their own face'. You might want to check with AGB to clarify insurance requirements :(
 

ben tarrow

Well-known member
The boss will get airborne contamination once the boss is removed, we breathe while removing faces and when putting them on.
This is a virus, passed on by droplets of water from people's lungs.
Its not a Russian nerve agent!
I think too many people are getting overly obsessive about this. I'm hearing about clubs that are absolutely bending over backwards to produce a surgically scrub clean environment where you could carry out brain surgery.
1. Put the boss up.
2. wash/sanitise your hands
3. put your target face on
Now you wont come into contact with the boss, just the target face when you pull your arrows out.
After shooting:
4. remove your target face
5 put the boss away
6. wash/sanitise your hands
Its that simple folks! Even simpler if someone else is putting the boss up/down as the boss is protected from any contamination by the archer using it by the target face.
 

Nictrix

Member
AGB specified 'archer brings their own face'. You might want to check with AGB to clarify insurance requirements :(
When you say about checking with AGBs insurance, do you think there could be a claim made to AGBs insurance if someone caught coronavirus from a target or while shooting?
Or in what way would AGBs insurance need to be involved?
 

KidCurry

Well-known member
AIUK Saviour
When you say about checking with AGBs insurance, do you think there could be a claim made to AGBs insurance if someone caught coronavirus from a target or while shooting?
Or in what way would AGBs insurance need to be involved?
Archery GB have already stated their insurance will cover you if you contract Covid-19 while shooting while following their guidelines. Proving where you contracted it is another thing, although the Track and Trace app would go a long way in helping I would think, which is why I suggested having the app during shooting.
 

Nictrix

Member
Archery GB have already stated their insurance will cover you if you contract Covid-19 while shooting while following their guidelines. Proving where you contracted it is another thing, although the Track and Trace app would go a long way in helping I would think, which is why I suggested having the app during shooting.
You say that the insurance covers you if you contract covid, but what does it cover you for?
Does the insurance just cover the club against a possible claim if someone contracted it?
 

KidCurry

Well-known member
AIUK Saviour
Actually I'm not sure I was correct having read it a number of times now. The FAQ says it will defend the claim.
Q. Does Archery GB’s insurance protect the club against claims if someone contracts Coronavirus whilst at the club? A. Yes, the insurers would respond to defend the claim. As long as the club is following government guidance around social distancing and they can evidence that they have followed Archery GB’s guidelines. It is essential that clubs record and evidence that they are working to and controlling the social distancing measures expected by the government, clubs should complete a thorough risk assessment. The person making the claim would need to be able to prove they contracted the virus at the club, which would be very difficult to do.
So I guess the Insurers are defending the club against the claim made by anyone who thinks they contracted the virus as the club was not following the AGB guidelines, which makes more sense. They do not insure the archer as I read it before. Probably a good reason to follow the guidelines, especially if you are on the committee and not have limited liability.
 
Last edited:

Nictrix

Member
Actually I'm not sure I was correct having read it a number of times now. The FAQ says it will defend the claim.

So I guess the Insurers are defending the club against the claim made by anyone who thinks they contracted the virus as the club was not following the AGB guidelines, which makes more sense. They do not insure the archer as I read it before. Probably a good reason to follow the guidelines, especially if you are on the committee and not have limited liability.
I wasnt having a go, I was just curious. Aside from AGB, clubs could just get their members to sign a waiver instead.
 

little-else

Supporter
Supporter
AIUK Saviour
trying to minimise any contact with equipment and others has lead us to consider shooting rounds where everyone moves forwards to the next line as you would on a 2 way shoot. so for a national, short national etc everyone moves to the 10 yd line rather than peopel moving the targets and having to dress in masks and gloves that then get binned after 10 seconds use.
Now this has raised an issue that has gone unnoticed for at least 10 years and that is the overshoot requring a minimum range and safety zone length of 150 yds if compounds are being used. If we move forwards then that means the last 10 yds of the zone disappears but be have a berm at 145m from the shooting line that would hoover up any stray arrows. As this wasnt mentioned in out self certification to AGB many menbers say that it doesnt exist as a safety feature and we are all doomed if we either take it into account or ask AGB to alter the paperwork.

having looked at the guidance and specificatiosn I can see 3 versions and only 1 is dated and ambiguous anyway so whe the guidance was drwan up was it based on a flat template or does it actually take into account ballistics and vertical angles for safety templates as do outdoor ranges for rifles and pistols where different take off angles are considerd for the types of guns but also their different muzzle energies of the projectile.
Haivng done a bit of measuring I am baffled as to why a compound bow that loose an arrow at a lesser speed than a 50lb draw recurve needs and extra 50 yds of beaten ground when the arrow drops within a foot of the recurve arrow when loosed at the same angle. another odd thing about berms is the closer you are to them the more of a distance behind the target they protect so stand 40 yds from a 3.5m bund 10 yds behind the target and you get a safety zone of 100yds when using the same angles as you would for standing 150 yds away on flat ground
Why is a wall an inpenetrable backstop on an indoor range but not an outdoor one?
can anyone tell me who made these decisions or is the range template just something that was a best fit to a playing field as the rest of the guidance for constructing a facility is like a millionaires shopping list of likes rather than what would be practicable for almost anyone starting a club.

You could apply the same questioning of logic to the 5m distances between targets when only 1 person per target- why not 4m?
If al the best peopel are advising the govt on their strategy who have AGB employed to come up with their scheme and why is the hazard added to the risk figure in the new risk assessment forms rather than multiplied to determine the overall figure.
For example a giant meteor hitting the eath will wipe out the entire population so an enormous hazard. The liklihood of this happening in the next billion years is almost zero so the risk is close to zero and the overall outcome is a negligible one. The AGB would rate the meteor as 3 and the risk as 1 and make 4, the same as a novice pointing a bow at someone 50 yds away where the outcome could be a fatal injury is serious but not certain and the chances of the novice hitting the poor sod much reduced so 2+2 and again 4.

The changes have made me question a lot more of how AGB actually functions and what it does to actually benefit the people paying their salaries and expenses so sorry to go off at a tanget a little as I always get the same shout down- "it will invalidate our insurance" when there is no such indication that is true and if you take that to be correct the if Fred shot me on a normal shooting day will they avoid paying out because I was wearing jeans at the time?
 

KidCurry

Well-known member
AIUK Saviour
... As this wasnt mentioned in out self certification to AGB many menbers say that it doesnt exist as a safety feature and we are all doomed if we either take it into account or ask AGB to alter the paperwork.
I think you should have mentioned it if you later come to rely on it in court, I think is how the saying goes :)
... I am baffled as to why a compound bow that loose an arrow at a lesser speed than a 50lb draw recurve needs and extra 50 yds of beaten ground when the arrow drops within a foot of the recurve arrow when loosed at the same angle.
The rules don't mention compound just mechanical release aids. I think the risk is accidental release during draw not how fast the bow is. I've seen stuff go up that still hasn't come down.
Why is a wall an inpenetrable backstop on an indoor range but not an outdoor one?
Height and roof probably. In all the years I've been shooting I have only once seen an arrow leave a building.
can anyone tell me who made these decisions or is the range template just something that was a best fit to a playing field...
They must have evolved over time. I have shot on many fields over the years that do not meet the latest requirements. I guess it is possible the rules were ignored but back then I was only interested in shooting not rules.
You could apply the same questioning of logic to the 5m distances between targets when only 1 person per target- why not 4m?
If al the best peopel are advising the govt on their strategy who have AGB employed...
It's probably a degree of guesswork to try and have people shooting around a virus that is so poorly understood. Better to be safe I suspect.
... if Fred shot me on a normal shooting day will they avoid paying out because I was wearing jeans at the time?
Only if they are blue and boot cut.
 
Last edited:

Cereleste

Supporter
Supporter
AIUK Saviour
Part of your problem seems to stem from "a compound bow that loose an arrow at a lesser speed than a 50lb draw recurve", which isn't accurate. With the same peak draw weight and a 20g arrow, the compound would be somewhere around 300fps and the recurve around 200fps at the most. Those arrows don't drop at the same distance. Combining that with a release aid (which is the thing that causes the rule to apply, compound fingers would go by the regular rules though that's mostly a moot point) and you've got a higher chance of an arrow with much more energy being released at a higher angle as a compound arrow released at half draw would have about half its regular energy and 70% of its speed (elliptical draw curve), while a recurve at half draw would only have a quarter of it's regular energy (linear draw curve) and half the speed. If both archers used an inadvisably light arrow and had a 29" draw and 8" brace, then their top speeds might be 70m/s for the recurve and 90m/s for the compound. If both had a pre-draw that put them at 45° and released at half draw, then the recurve arrow might travel 120m while the compound would go 420m ignoring drag. With lots of drag, maybe in the ballpark of 100 and 350m. So the recurve would still be safely within the overshoot while the compound would be in the next field over.
 

ben tarrow

Well-known member
trying to minimise any contact with equipment and others has lead us to consider shooting rounds where everyone moves forwards to the next line as you would on a 2 way shoot. so for a national, short national etc everyone moves to the 10 yd line rather than peopel moving the targets and having to dress in masks and gloves that then get binned after 10 seconds use.
Now this has raised an issue that has gone unnoticed for at least 10 years and that is the overshoot requring a minimum range and safety zone length of 150 yds if compounds are being used. If we move forwards then that means the last 10 yds of the zone disappears but be have a berm at 145m from the shooting line that would hoover up any stray arrows. As this wasnt mentioned in out self certification to AGB many menbers say that it doesnt exist as a safety feature and we are all doomed if we either take it into account or ask AGB to alter the paperwork.

having looked at the guidance and specificatiosn I can see 3 versions and only 1 is dated and ambiguous anyway so whe the guidance was drwan up was it based on a flat template or does it actually take into account ballistics and vertical angles for safety templates as do outdoor ranges for rifles and pistols where different take off angles are considerd for the types of guns but also their different muzzle energies of the projectile.
Haivng done a bit of measuring I am baffled as to why a compound bow that loose an arrow at a lesser speed than a 50lb draw recurve needs and extra 50 yds of beaten ground when the arrow drops within a foot of the recurve arrow when loosed at the same angle. another odd thing about berms is the closer you are to them the more of a distance behind the target they protect so stand 40 yds from a 3.5m bund 10 yds behind the target and you get a safety zone of 100yds when using the same angles as you would for standing 150 yds away on flat ground
Why is a wall an inpenetrable backstop on an indoor range but not an outdoor one?
can anyone tell me who made these decisions or is the range template just something that was a best fit to a playing field as the rest of the guidance for constructing a facility is like a millionaires shopping list of likes rather than what would be practicable for almost anyone starting a club.

You could apply the same questioning of logic to the 5m distances between targets when only 1 person per target- why not 4m?
If al the best peopel are advising the govt on their strategy who have AGB employed to come up with their scheme and why is the hazard added to the risk figure in the new risk assessment forms rather than multiplied to determine the overall figure.
For example a giant meteor hitting the eath will wipe out the entire population so an enormous hazard. The liklihood of this happening in the next billion years is almost zero so the risk is close to zero and the overall outcome is a negligible one. The AGB would rate the meteor as 3 and the risk as 1 and make 4, the same as a novice pointing a bow at someone 50 yds away where the outcome could be a fatal injury is serious but not certain and the chances of the novice hitting the poor sod much reduced so 2+2 and again 4.

The changes have made me question a lot more of how AGB actually functions and what it does to actually benefit the people paying their salaries and expenses so sorry to go off at a tanget a little as I always get the same shout down- "it will invalidate our insurance" when there is no such indication that is true and if you take that to be correct the if Fred shot me on a normal shooting day will they avoid paying out because I was wearing jeans at the time?
Firstly, the rules of shooting dont mention "compound" with respect to overshoot distances. The term used is "bows shot off the fingers" and "bows shot with mechanical release aids"

Secondly, if there is any doubt about your range layout meeting the Rules of Shooting requirements, you should get a range assessment done by an official assessor. Believe me, I was STUNNED about what range assessors will pass as acceptable. You dont say how high your berm is. If moving forwards 10 yards compromises your range, then dont do it until your ground has been assessed. Simple.

There used to be a rule that if your shooting line moved, the overshoot required was something like 250yards regardless. That no longer seems to be present.

TBH, its a bit daft questioning the rules of shooting here. This is not the place to make any difference
 

Mark2

Active member
AIUK Saviour
I attacked my Decut 40cm waterproof face with 100% IPA and no matter how hard I tried it had no effect at all.
 

Rik

Supporter
Supporter
...
The rules don't mention compound just mechanical release aids. I think the risk is accidental release during draw not how fast the bow is. I've seen stuff go up that still hasn't come down.
...
I can testify to that. I don't often shoot compound and it was somewhat embarrassing to need a step ladder to retrieve an arrow at an indoor venue, that time.
 
Top