AGB - no membership refunds

Kerf

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I think a sliding scale of subscription to AGB would be an excellent way forward. I also think making the magazine subscription an option (to save costs) should also be considered so that those who want a glossy mag can pay for it and those of us who don’t don’t. AGB have a website after all.
The list of costs which KidCurry quoted above comes to £19.50 per AGB member per annum. That leaves £27.50 unaccounted for. Where does this go?
To be honest, I wouldn’t mind paying £19.50 (round it up to £20).
Making the magazine a pay-if-you-want-it option dumps a further £4.82 (£5) and all of a sudden a recreational archer might be paying as little as £15 in AGB annual subs.
 

dvd8n

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The list of costs which KidCurry quoted above comes to £19.50 per AGB member per annum. That leaves £27.50 unaccounted for. Where does this go?
It's broken down on page 28 of the yearbook, but it's basically admin.
 

Corax67

Well-known member
I was chatting with a non-archer work colleague about AGB post C-19, he is heavily involved in competitive rowing, and we both had similar thoughts about our respective governing bodies.

Our consensus was that they are both locked into a mindset that Olympic success is what they desire above all, subsequently once this awful pandemic is behind us we will almost certainly see a significant hike in membership fees, albeit possibly stepped over a number of years, to recoup losses from this year as well as the loss of many local clubs who will have been forced to close through loss of revenue & significant rents/lease fees on premises and no support from above.

The Sport England scheme is incredibly narrow in who it will provide financial assistance for during this time and it must be remembered any monies received are a loan which will require paying back - how can clubs with no idea about membership retention levels or income levels agree to take on debt in those circumstances ?

We were both pretty glum by the end of the chat about the future of both our sports at grass roots levels I’m sad to say.



Karl
 

dvd8n

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The Sport England scheme is incredibly narrow in who it will provide financial assistance for during this time and it must be remembered any monies received are a loan which will require paying back - how can clubs with no idea about membership retention levels or income levels agree to take on debt in those circumstances
A club taking on debt under the present circumstances is a really bad idea.

Firstly, it's not really solving any problems, it's just moving them down the road.

Second, and worse, unless your club is a limited company (and its probably not), if the club collapses then it's members become liable for is debt. And my understanding is that there's no provision for equal distribution of the debt. So if you are the member with the fanciest car then you could be the member targeted for debt recovery.

If your club decides to take on a loan I'd be very concerned.
 

Kerf

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Our consensus was that they are both locked into a mindset that Olympic success is what they desire above all, subsequently once this awful pandemic is behind us we will almost certainly see a significant hike in membership fees,
I agree but desperately hope you’re wrong. If that is the case I can see either a breakaway of clubs seeking their own individual shooting insurance or forming loose associations/co-operatives to buy insurance together. I imagine most clubs won’t be able to afford to reduce their own fees in the face of an AGB hike but if they don’t then membership for many existing archers will become prohibitively expensive and new potential members will look elsewhere for their recreation.
Follow that argument through and AGB will have less members so will therefore have to put up fees again as they continue to chase their medals goal until archery becomes, not a popular grassroots sport (as it is for the vast majority of its members) but a sport able to be enjoyed by a few well off participants.
So unless AGB sees the light and either keeps fees the same in the medium term, or better still reduces them to help clubs recover, then it will have shafted itself and us all.
I hope some of the AGB board members read these posts because they have some very hard thinking to do.
 

dvd8n

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The Olympic success focus is in my opinion the fault of the UK sport funding model linking funding to Olympic medal success.

Money is offered to associations on the condition that medals are won. So of course the associations focus on elite athletes.

I understand that the idea is that Olympic success breeds enthusiasm at grass roots level but I'm not aware of any evidence that that happens.
 

Cereleste

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Archery GB shows what/who they value pretty clearly in the section of the report just above the cost breakdown:

"Segment 1 – Gold. Our Experts. They have more time and money available for the sport, and so have better equipment and better knowledge. Competing is key. Also, the only Segment to show higher spending on events.
Segment 2 – Red. Our Eager Club Members. Shoot at clubs and in competitions. Concerned about expenses but not frugal. Practice frequently and want technical guidance. Likely to have no dependents.
Segment 3 – Blue. Our Enthusiasts. More price sensitive. Likes competing (potentially enjoy the social aspect) and appreciates the quality of archery and the challenge. Generally, think their knowledge is good.
Segment 4 – Black. Our Casual shooters. Practice less, compete less, spend less, have less knowledge. Aluminium arrows are key. Coaching and development as a focus. Enjoy the sport as a hobby or are new to the sport."

It seems unnecessarily judgemental directly assigning groups of people to scoring zones, especially when more than 77% of their membership is in the low scoring black/blue zones according to their survey. Being in the blue/red tells me I'm inadequate with my tent and second hand gear, but it's not their call to make. Though at least they've made the expected financial attitude clear for each group, so it looks like a sliding scale for membership fees would fit right in.
If the 8% in the gold paid £80 in total (as X base membership + Y "addons")+, the 16% in the red paid £65 (as X membership +Z "addons"), and the 77% in the blue/black paid £30, AGB would receive the same amount (less magazine and card costs). The blue/black frugal unknowledgeables would still be subsidising the yellow/red archers but not nearly as much. The yellow/red archers are more happy to pay the cost, and if it was worked into an extra £3/WRS tournament fee then it would wouldn't be that noticeable and their "base membership" cost could be reduced to £40. Looking at the number of competitions attended on average in the national rankings, £3 per tournament would likely cover the reduction in fees to the lower segments.
 

Big George

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In my experience big events like the Olympics, world cups etc. do result in more people trying activities. Unfortunately very few of the new enthusiastic people will go beyond about a month and that’s with sports that don’t require kit let alone a beginners course.
 

KidCurry

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A club taking on debt under the present circumstances is a really bad idea.
Second, and worse, unless your club is a limited company (and its probably not), if the club collapses then it's members become liable for is debt. And my understanding is that there's no provision for equal distribution of the debt. So if you are the member with the fanciest car then you could be the member targeted for debt recovery.
If your club decides to take on a loan I'd be very concerned.
I would run a mile...
 

LAC Mark

Active member
A club taking on debt under the present circumstances is a really bad idea.

Firstly, it's not really solving any problems, it's just moving them down the road.

Second, and worse, unless your club is a limited company (and its probably not), if the club collapses then it's members become liable for is debt. And my understanding is that there's no provision for equal distribution of the debt. So if you are the member with the fanciest car then you could be the member targeted for debt recovery.

If your club decides to take on a loan I'd be very concerned.
I'm lucky in that my club have a healthy bank balance, so are unlikely to require a lone, however I don't know what the underline costs are or how long we can go on savings alone.
 

mk1

It's an X
Supporter
The problem with AGB as I see and feel it is one of disengagement. How many of us can honestly say we have feelings of fondness or loyalty to AGB. I’m a member because I have to be. My county and regional fees come to the princely sum of £5 per annum. I’m not sure what I get from these bodies on a day to day basis but for a fiver a year I don’t much care
My AGB membership costs me £47 a year.
I’m not sure what I get for that either. So £52 of my annual £100 subscription which I pay to my Club each year flies straight to organisations that don’t seem to benefit me at all.
I absolutely do not begrudge paying my Club fees. I feel I get real value for money for my Club fees. I enjoy the fellowship and society, the sense of belonging, the shooting days, club comps, inter club comps, social events, BBQs, maintenance days, training and coaching days, beginners courses, have a goes, taster sessions, outdoor leagues, indoor leagues, 252 badges, etc etc. None of the above have any input whatsoever from AGB.
So let’s be honest. AGB exists exclusively to win medals at the Olympics and international events. Medals mean money. Money pays the suits’ salaries. The suits want more money and so the merry-go-round continues.
Like others here I very much doubt that AGB will do anything to help any struggling club at the end of this pandemic. But you can bet your best bow the “elite” archers will be fully supported no matter what.
what other clubs does it do it leagues with?, does it not use the safety and shooting rules of AGB? I could go on.
 

mk1

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I absolutely do not begrudge paying my Club fees. I feel I get real value for money for my Club fees. I enjoy the fellowship and society, the sense of belonging, the shooting days, club comps, inter club comps, social events, BBQs, maintenance days, training and coaching days, beginners courses, have a goes, taster sessions, outdoor leagues, indoor leagues, 252 badges, etc etc. None of the above have any input whatsoever from AGB.
I wrote a much longer post than the one above - I asked whether Kerf's club had qualified coaches, whether it advertised its begenniers course thrhough The Big Weekend, whether they followed the rules of shooting etc -
 

Timid Toad

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Coaches, beginner's courses and rules of shooting could be adopted from a much cheaper alternative governing body. Perhaps it's time AGB stopped thinking it offers some kind of superior product or have a monopoly. A more conciliatory attitude would help.
 

Nictrix

Member
Im fairly new to all this having been shooting for about 18 months so what goes on in the background is almost unknown to me.
What I have seen though is that if you want to compete in competitions you have no alternative but to join AGB as there seems to be some ruling out there that everybody shooting must be a member of AGB or nobody is covered by insurance.
My club is fairly small and operates using its own insurance as there are not a lot of members that want to compete.
Because of this I had to join AGB independently as they will not allow people to join through a club that has members that are not AGB even though I could have just joined my club and contributed to their own insurance.
The fact that clubs running competitions demand that anybody participating must be an ABG member means that AGB is necessary.
 

mk1

It's an X
Supporter
Coaches, beginner's courses and rules of shooting could be adopted from a much cheaper alternative governing body. Perhaps it's time AGB stopped thinking it offers some kind of superior product or have a monopoly. A more conciliatory attitude would help.
Ha - well that has been argued plenty of times in the past and indeed one or two have tried to set up alternatives and they've not caught on.
 

dvd8n

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Ha - well that has been argued plenty of times in the past and indeed one or two have tried to set up alternatives and they've not caught on.
The only one that I know of that has managed to maintain any traction at all is STAFAA in Scotland with about a dozen clubs.
 
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Timid Toad

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Ha - well that has been argued plenty of times in the past and indeed one or two have tried to set up alternatives and they've not caught on.
Again, a pretty arrogant attitude, Muriel. In my club, I'm the only one who can be bothered to compete and even then it's mostly at the International Masters so I could belong to any administrative body recognised by WA
.
Maybe AGB at all levels - not just HQ - should be looking at ways to welcome and support grassroots clubs right now at this major break point, because a lot of clubs will be reevaluating what their relationship is with AGB while they can't shoot.
 

olis

Supporter
Supporter
So,
What have the Romans ever done for us? (!)
It seems to me that a lot of the gripes in this thread are generic.
I would say that having a governing body is generally a good thing, especially for something as niche as archery.
Spending the money better would be easier with specific demands by the membership I suppose.
If I could I would be using a lot of the budget in schools because that's the cohort with the money in 20 or 40 years time.
 

Sinbad

Member
The insurance part is true. When I started up again last year I took my own insurance out as I dont do comps etc. Then a couple of months later I was told I had to join AGB because even though the majority were covered to shoot with there own insurance those in AGB would not be covered. My choice if I had one would be, not to join AGB and use the money saved to keep my insurance but have the club keep the rest. Maybe get a good saving going to get there own grounds.
 
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