Archery.... is there a need for further change?

LionOfNarnia

Supporter
Supporter
"a club" running smoothly. I was not talking about part of a club, or a clique within a club.
There have been plenty of examples of (especially) committee members who have their heads so deep into the sand that they won't even acknowledge there is a problem, never mind try to do something about it.

'Part' of the problem is, AGB are so concerned with safety/safeguarding ete etc etc that they've sucked the fun out of the sport at the top level, which filters down easily.

I saw the same issues with the international blowpipe community - esp the damned 'muricans - so when I set up NSBV (Dutch Sports Blowpipe Association) we did things differently - and got accused of having a 'bowling alley mentality' by the afore-mentioned.
 


chuffalump

Well-known member
...... majority of archers I met were very much focused either one way or the other, field archers considered target boring (but would often make use of guesting for winter practise): I'm not entirely sure about what target archers thought of field, becuase I didn't meet that many (being a field archer primarily myself), but my rough impression was they thought it 'frivolous'.......
I'd say that most clubs can't do both. Owning or renting a target suitable field AND and Field suitable woodland....

As for the separation, I'd say its related. While the idea of field is interesting, I couldn't do it without sacrificing time on the target range. The same reason I don't take the recurve to the club, it would take time away from the compound. I'd be more likely to try field if I enjoyed barebow......but the horsebow takes time away from the compound.......
 


Sinbad

Member
I agree Chuffalump. I would like to try it, but the local field club has gone/going and I do enjoy target. Doing drop in would take time and effort of a club, and they are already doing a lot for the club as is.
 


geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
There have been plenty of examples of (especially) committee members who have their heads so deep into the sand that they won't even acknowledge there is a problem, never mind try to do something about it.
I would totally agree with that. Been there and been guilty.
I would add that they have an interest in keeping things as they are. They were the ones who did the work to get things as they are currently; and they may feel there is no need to change because to them, things are ok.
Their attitude may not be popular with everyone; but they certainly won't be changed by threads on a forum that they don't read.
As I said before, I have been in the situation where I was set in my ways and felt no need to update myself. I was persuaded to change my thinking by someone who took the time to talk things through with me. Not as someone who was dissatisfied with my work; telling me I needed to do better, but as someone who realised I could do better so long as I was motivated. The ingredients brought to my conversion process were a sympathy with what I was feeling at that time, and an enthusiasm for the new approach that was, both infectious and motivating.
It was not a simple task; it could easily have gone the wrong way. I felt good after the interview, because I knew I was heading into a better future with my work.
 


LionOfNarnia

Supporter
Supporter
To avoid - as much as possible, anyway - 'flogging a dead horse', here are some practical things I'd like to see changed -

- from the PoV of an intermediate recurver
- regarding regional/club competitions

1) The end of 'apply by post enclosing a cheque' events - it's 2020 FFS, not 1970!
2) Compulsory use of electronic timing systems at RS events
3) same for 'proper' lighting of each target for indoor comps

...and I'm interested in what peeps from other counties have experienced in this regard.
 


Sinbad

Member
For me, I enjoy Target. My club try different things during the year, with fun shoots/3D/comps etc. What are the full changes you want to see these clubs doing? Is it drop in for any one, if so, how would they fund the people to sit there every day, not just days they know people would want to shoot? The equipment repairs etc. We pay rent to shoot on a rugby pitch, so even we cant do shooting all the time.

It would need full facilities and in a location that can provide it for a large number of people, or be mobile that can use sites around a larger area.

I just want to get a full clear picture of what people expect the sport to provide/or want to provide.
 


Last edited:

mbaker74

Supporter
Supporter
1) The end of 'apply by post enclosing a cheque' events - it's 2020 FFS, not 1970!
2) Compulsory use of electronic timing systems at RS events
3) same for 'proper' lighting of each target for indoor comps

...and I'm interested in what peeps from other counties have experienced in this regard.
I shoot in Yorkshire which I would say is one of the best atered for counties in the UK in terms of both what the Yorkshire Archery Association put on for a very small YAA payment each year and the number and type of available competitions.....

Application to events - taking cheque payments for a lot of people is much simpler than trying to match up electronic payments to application forms coming in.... The larger clubs and longer running events are starting to move across to things like Eventbrite for bookings and payments, but I would think that local club run competitions, of which we probably have 8 or 10 each year in Yorkshire just in target, will continue, and I personally can understand that, treasurers have enough to do...

Electronic timing at RS events - someone may correct me, but im sure that part of being an RS shoot is that it must be timed..... I cant see what the issue with this is? If you dont like being timed, dont go to RS shoots?

Proper lighting - this is totally dependant on what the local facilities are that the club can hire, and this again comes back to how much people are prepared to pay. As an example, my club hires a school gym three sessions a week, which costs the thick end of £3k a winter. The lighting in there is perfect as its set up for people to play basketball, indoor cricket etc. For comparison, my local archery shop has a full size indoor range which, if you have an AGB card, you can turn up to for a pay and play session, at £5 for 2 hrs. It is purpose built with lighting etc BUT I cant see the shibuya fibre sight pin in there as the lighting is set up to be diffuse at the shooting line and brighter down at the target, so theres not enough direct light to illuminate the fibre as much as our hall does, giving a totally different shooting experience.

Do things need to change in archery? I think that is totally dependant on which club you shoot with and which county your in. For me, at my club and in Yorkshire, no... Our club covers both competitve archers, like me, and fun archers who turn up and shoot when they feel like it, plus recurve, ELB, barebow, horsebow and compound... .We have two level 1 coaches and a very active level 2 coach, all of who are available to anyone who asks, and we run coaching sessions for anywhere between 1 and 5 people as and when there is a need or opportunity.....

We shoot target, but have plenty of fun shoots through the year, including a clout competition but using jelly bows only, so at about 65 yds....
There are local field courses about the area if people want to try that, as well as clout comps, we dont run any as we dont have the facilities, but make sure people know where they are and encourage people to try them if they want to.

I appreciate our club is a lot different to lot of other places, but I dont believe any of this is down to AGB, its about how your club is structured, and your area.. bottom line is, if you dont like it or want something different to happen, you have four options..... lobby the committee to make it happen, get on the committee yourself and push it through, put the activity on yourself, or leave and go somewhere else...

2p... ker plink
 


dvd8n

Supporter
Supporter
I appreciate our club is a lot different to lot of other places, but I dont believe any of this is down to AGB, its about how your club is structured, and your area.. bottom line is, if you dont like it or want something different to happen, you have four options..... lobby the committee to make it happen, get on the committee yourself and push it through, put the activity on yourself, or leave and go somewhere else...
I kind of agree and disagree.

I agree that the club atmosphere and activities are down to the club members.

But on the other hand if a small club doesn't have members with the skills / time / qualifications / inclinations / experience to do coaching then there's not a lot that the club can do. A good coach has a special skill set and gift that doesn't necessarily correlate with being able to shoot consistent 10s on one bow type, it's more about depth and breadth of experience, knowledge, patience, enthusiasm an ability to communicate. If that person doesn't exist in the club then they're not available. But AGB has them and could make more. My opinion is that coaching is one thing that AGB could do really well, and in fact has a responsibility to do, but just doesn't unless you're one of their chosen few. And it would really add value to people's membership. It could turn AGB into the organisation that people want to be in, rather than the one that they join because it's the default.
 


Kernowlad

Active member
Totally agree with dvd8n.
The access to coaching is clearly a postcode lottery but for the fees we paid, quadruple those of our field organisations (which covers insurance and a magazine; exactly what we got from AGB; NOTHING more), something else needs to be offered to the majority of members.

But sadly the complacency of the “I’m alright Jack”
brigade who are happy to keep things as they are means changes won’t happen.

So increasing numbers will turn away from them and choose to enjoy archery in other ways.
 


Last edited:

Sinbad

Member
I don't do the comps, don't have time really and getting a little long in the tooth. So opted not to join AGB at first. Unfortunately the way they have the insurance written, if a member got injured while shooting with a non AGB member (no matter who did what) they would not be covered, but the non member with there own insurance would be. That to me is just a money grab.
 


Kernowlad

Active member
I don't do the comps, don't have time really and getting a little long in the tooth. So opted not to join AGB at first. Unfortunately the way they have the insurance written, if a member got injured while shooting with a non AGB member (no matter who did what) they would not be covered, but the non member with there own insurance would be. That to me is just a money grab.
Yes that is another part of it - you "have" to join to be able to do target archery. Then get almost nothing for a large fee.
Meanwhile the board is swanning around in new Volvos and acting like a noughties government quango only really giving anything of any use to total beginners or those that go the Elite route - which isn't many.
 


Sinbad

Member
That would be good to have a top coach provide free coaching at clubs around the country. But that is only seen if you get into the top end, or picked for an area team etc, have to do comps for that. I agree with what you say regarding the average archer not getting anything from them. Thankfully our main coach is a level 2, a really helpful guys who does most forms of shooting.
 


bimble

Well-known member
Supporter
Fonz Awardee
Ironman
Yes that is another part of it - you "have" to join to be able to do target archery. Then get almost nothing for a large fee.
Meanwhile the board is swanning around in new Volvos and acting like a noughties government quango only really giving anything of any use to total beginners or those that go the Elite route - which isn't many.
No, you have to join to take part in AGB shoots and to shoot under the auspices of AGB. There is nothing stopping other organisations from putting on "target" shoots if they wish. The EFAA indoor champs is basically a Worcester round. Archery New Zealand shoot York/Herefords. If an NFAS club wanted to host a "target" shoot they could... of course, considering that most people who join NFAS aren't interested in such shoots it probably won't be well attended.
 


Sinbad

Member
But if it's not and AGB event, AGB members would have to get third party insurance as AGB would not cover them shooting with none members.
 


chuffalump

Well-known member
So you are both happy with the status quo then.
Many of us feel target archery needs a major overhaul.
I haven't said I'm happy about the situation, whatever that is.

I get to shoot in the way I want to shoot. I'd love an all knowing font of wisdom to watch my form 100% of the time and tell me exactly what I'm doing wrong AND how to correct it. I'd love an easy way to carry out tuning exercises without disturbing everyone else shooting. That's about all I could really complain about with my club. I can see that we probably could do more to attract more members, or keep them longer, but if you have to fight to keep them, at the expense of the reason you joined the club in the first place, what's the point? A club is a club. Not a company. Not a money making exercise. I want all types and sexes of people to join and enjoy archery. I place no barriers in front of people who want to shoot beside me. If they seek out archery and find enjoyment in obsessive form analysis, or owning every type of bow under the sun, or naming their arrows after orcs from LotR, or welding their own ground quivers and making their own tabs, I don't care. As long as we can all get on the shooting line and spend an hour or two shooting together.

The greater archery world has provided me with a framework to do this within. Something that changes me from being a guy with a lethal weapon in the park to a sportsman (of sorts). There are plenty of things I can whinge about, archaic dress codes, obsessive rules about range layout and insurance compliance. However, as far as I can tell, my club doesnt suffer from sexism, ageism, unfriendly cliques or bow type disapproval. What it suffers from is life. Finding the time to organise club events at the same time as working and family.

Hmmm. One thing that I think really needs changing though, is the idea that you have to ask for help. That an archers shooting is private unless invited in. Some people find it hard to ask for help. Giving it to them uninvited takes that stress away. Personally, if I see the little telltales that show frustration, I'll test the water, with a little observation, a hint of advice. Maybe it helps. Maybe it doesnt. I don't turn it into a project and any future suggestions, or lack of, are based on the responses I get.
 


bimble

Well-known member
Supporter
Fonz Awardee
Ironman
But if it's not and AGB event, AGB members would have to get third party insurance as AGB would not cover them shooting with none members.
And...?? AGB members presumably have enough target shoots of their own to be getting on with. The complaint was you had to join AGB to do "target" archery... when there's nothing stopping other organisations from doing "target" shoots, it's just the other organisations chose not to do any target style shoots.
 


geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Chuffalump, a very interesting and valuable post. It is too easy to forget that archery is about archers shooting their way safely.
As for asking for help or coaches waiting to be asked before they offer it; this is what I was told when I had my training.
Not offering help; is like a safeguard; it gets the coach to think first before jumping in. It is like the first aider looking for danger before helping with an injury.
So the coach sees a possible problem; and thinks a while. We were told that we could find a way round this rule, without totally ignoring it.
Try something to break the ice and the archer will probably lead up to wanting help and asking.
 


KidCurry

Well-known member
'Part' of the problem is, AGB are so concerned with safety/safeguarding ete etc etc that they've sucked the fun out of the sport at the top level, which filters down easily.
I'm all for safeguarding. Vulnerable people must be protected or they will be, and have been, abused. As for safety, I suspect most changes have been driven by the insurance companies rather than AGB, and it hasn't changed massively over the 30 yrs I've been shooting.
 


LionOfNarnia

Supporter
Supporter
I'm all for safeguarding. Vulnerable people must be protected or they will be, and have been, abused.
That's a bit of a sore point for me.

In the mid-nineties, I drove for the local community transport scheme, supervised a PHAB sports club & was both 'the technical guy' & a mentor for the cerebral palsy society. In my prime I coached American football & trampolining. I was effective & well-liked.

In 1998 I was convicted of cannabis possession. No 'victim', not even myself.

As a result of that one conviction, FOR LIFE I am barred from 'supervising the vulnerable' - even as a volunteer - In healthcare, legal, teaching, etc etc. It's the main reason I can't even dream of doing my AGB coaching qualifications & 'paying it forward' for the sport.

How TF can that be right & fair, in a land where organised gangs of abusers are ignored due to fears about 'racial/religious' matters?
 


Top