Archery shops - Are they taking the mick? (Online orders)

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Nothing. I think they are fantastic. Mind you, they don't perform well in a wind; unless you like impersonating a weather vane.
 

brman

Member
Its only frustrating if you expect the delivery to be Amazonlikeā€¦.
If you accept the reality, which is as WhiteHart stated,that shops can list a million items on their web site, and lay their hands onany of them relatively quickly, but it is not physically possible or practicalfrom a cash flow point of view, to stock 2 of everything. So when you order anything, apart from maybenocks, and even then there are so many different types and colours no shop mayhave them all in, assume the parts are ordered in from one of the main stockistwarehouses, so will add a couple of days on the delivery.
Your other option is to ring the shop directly, they cantell you if they have the parts on stock, and get them to you faster ifrequired.
I had this exact call with the Archery Shop, when the fingerspaced on my Soma saker tab broke three days before a 1440. One phone call andI had a new spacer in the post next day. They now get 99% of my custom, even if some items I have to wait a weekfor if im not in a hurryā€¦.
I think the amazon experience has aspects: 1) They ship things very fast, mostly next day. 2) They tell you what is happening, when it is shipped and when it will arrive.
To me, the 1st is nice but not essential. I don't need my kit next day (most of the time). But it is very frustrating not knowing (even days after ordering) which week the bits will arrive. This is where I think the biggest gain could be had from the suppliers - just tell us what is happening.

Not wanting to get into comparing suppliers but a good example of this was a bow I ordered for my wife from one of the largest uk suppliers. Not cheap and quite a large parcel so I didn't want it sitting on the doorstep. Nor did I want to drive to the nearest depot to pick up an undelivered parcel. But in the end it was pot luck - after ordering the order status went to complete the same day. Turns out that doesn't mean it was shipped. It was shipped a couple of days later (I think, I never got told) and arrive a couple of days after than. It was just luck that someone was in to receive it. There was a tracking number on the order (visible online) but that was not recognised by the courier companies website so no help to me.
As it turns out, it came without a string (which it should have had) so I called them up. Superb service on the phone - apologies for the mistake, a promise to ship the string asap along with a free rest as compensation for my trouble. Could not ask for more (other than the string in the box to start with).

So what is the lesson there? They obviously want to look after their customers, but the online ordering is not as good as most other online stores and left me slightly frustrated. Should they "get with the times" or should I accept that for archery stuff I need to go back 10 years and phone them up to check on every order that will not fit through my letter box?
I could accept doing the latter for small, specialised, suppliers but for mass produced kit it does go agains the grain a bit.
 

Timid Toad

Moderator
Staff member
Supporter
Fonz Awardee
Ironman
Here's an idea!

For big-ticket items that need ordered in, the shop doesn't take all your money when you order but accepts a (non-refundable?) deposit until they actually have the item in stock?
No problem, if the customer is prepared to absorb the cost implication here: The bank/transaction processing company will charge twice for your purchase, the deposit and final payment count as individual payments so there will be transaction fees plus percentages. Like postage costs, nothing is free, the customer pays somewhere along the line.
 

LionOfNarnia

Supporter
Supporter
Just to add to my OP:-

I've now had an email from the supplier saying the order has been shipped, but with no tracking link (Royal Mail 48hr I believe)

A previous order had the same issue, no tracking info sent by RM, I had to email the shop & get the link from them. They said then that they'd check to see what had gone wrong & fix it. Obviously that hasn't happened (yet) so I'm about to email them again to get the link again.

The collective wisdom of the forum seems to support the supposition that the shops do indeed need to step up their game, especially when it comes to communications with the customer.

Personally I never use Amazon so I can't comment on how they do things (apart from what South Park portrayed about them ;) ) but eBay is my go-to place for items I can't get locally - that's small businesses, often mom-and-pop high street (specialist) shops, and generally they do a pretty damned good job. Is there any reason why the physical archery stores cannot match eBay seller performance? Or is their reticence more do do with the fact that a high proportion of archers are 'more mature' & less internet-savvy?
 

LionOfNarnia

Supporter
Supporter
No problem, if the customer is prepared to absorb the cost implication here: The bank/transaction processing company will charge twice for your purchase, the deposit and final payment count as individual payments so there will be transaction fees plus percentages. Like postage costs, nothing is free, the customer pays somewhere along the line.
Yes, we're all slaves to the legacy banking system atm. The solution to that is crypto-currency which isn't quite ready to replace the old system YET - but it's on the way.

(I've had minor involvement in that field since 2013, have a small (?300) investment in two interesting coins, and have passed Introduction-level masters' degree courses in 'Money & Society' & 'Digital Currencies'.)
 

brman

Member
Just to add to my OP:-

I've now had an email from the supplier saying the order has been shipped, but with no tracking link (Royal Mail 48hr I believe)

A previous order had the same issue, no tracking info sent by RM, I had to email the shop & get the link from them. They said then that they'd check to see what had gone wrong & fix it. Obviously that hasn't happened (yet) so I'm about to email them again to get the link again.

The collective wisdom of the forum seems to support the supposition that the shops do indeed need to step up their game, especially when it comes to communications with the customer.

Personally I never use Amazon so I can't comment on how they do things (apart from what South Park portrayed about them ;) ) but eBay is my go-to place for items I can't get locally - that's small businesses, often mom-and-pop high street (specialist) shops, and generally they do a pretty damned good job. Is there any reason why the physical archery stores cannot match eBay seller performance? Or is their reticence more do do with the fact that a high proportion of archers are 'more mature' & less internet-savvy?
To be fair to suppliers, ebay suppliers have a big advantage - they have the ebay order management system which makes it very easy to see payment, send update emails etc. Trouble is, it isn't a cheap system from a sellers point of view. That said, a lot of bigger businesses also appear to use ebay as a shop front so I guess they must make it financially worthwhile.
 

mbaker74

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Supporter
AIUK Saviour
I agree the shops could give an expected delivery date, but your missing the point that most of the stuff they have to order in from one of the two or three nain distributors, so the shops don't know exactly when it will arrive.... I would also disagree with the mass produced bit for Archery, its not big enough to maintain big margins or true mass production.
Other thing to bear in mind, the shops don't generally have enough people to serve customers, answer the phone and sort web orders, so the web stuff has to wait. They could employ more staff but then prices would go up.
 

LionOfNarnia

Supporter
Supporter
So why do we have no access to those 2 or 3 main distributors?

If the shops can order single items from them, to mark up & sell on, isn't it just protectionism - supposedly frowned upon under 'free market capitalism' - to deny us the same access?

As to your final points about the shops, why should online customers, who know what they want & have already paid for it, have to suffer delays due to telephone/footfall people who will bang on for ages & maybe not buy anything at all? Shouldn't the people who have already paid for what they want get the highest priority?
 

brman

Member
I agree the shops could give an expected delivery date, but your missing the point that most of the stuff they have to order in from one of the two or three nain distributors, so the shops don't know exactly when it will arrive....
So, an email to say "awaiting stock from distributor" will stop me wondering if it will arrive today. Then an email saying "ship 1st class" will tell me to expect it soon. I am not expecting minute by minute updates, just not a black hole communication wise ;)

I would also disagree with the mass produced bit for Archery, its not big enough to maintain big margins or true mass production.
By mass production I meant stuff that could be bought anywhere. Like avalon sight or even a middle of the road riser. If I know what I want (ok, maybe not for the riser unless I had tried one before) I could buy it from amazon if I wanted to.

Other thing to bear in mind, the shops don't generally have enough people to serve customers, answer the phone and sort web orders, so the web stuff has to wait. They could employ more staff but then prices would go up.
Understood, and i have been to quicks at waterlooville and it is not as large as you might expect from the web presence. So I understand the problem. But, lets be honest, we are talking about what might help archery shops survive. So saying "it is a bit difficult" so put up with it will only work with a select few. ie. those that really do something unique that people are prepared to treat differently. The others are going to suffer, like it or not.
Plus, I don't think a delay in kicking the order off is the biggest problem, as long as the customer gets told. So an automated email saying "you order has been received, we will let you know when we process it" is better than silence for a few days. It has to be a pretty dodgy ordering system that doesn't allow that sort of communication.

I might be coming across as being a bit hard on the suppliers but I do understand the problems. I just feel that, like it or not, the world is moving on and it is driven by what the customer wants, not what is easy for the supplier. Most customers probably don't care about the problems, they just want what they can get elsewhere. Whether that is a good thing of not is a slightly different topic.
 

brman

Member
So why do we have no access to those 2 or 3 main distributors?

If the shops can order single items from them, to mark up & sell on, isn't it just protectionism - supposedly frowned upon under 'free market capitalism' - to deny us the same access?

As to your final points about the shops, why should online customers, who know what they want & have already paid for it, have to suffer delays due to telephone/footfall people who will bang on for ages & maybe not buy anything at all? Shouldn't the people who have already paid for what they want get the highest priority?
Distributors are pretty essential for most shops. It isn't practical for individual shops to every different item, so they use distributors who also hold the stock until a customer needs it. A lot of big places also do it but are more streamlined in the shipping, often the distributor ships direct to the customer. Distributors are not set up to deal direct to the end customer, they need online shops to do that......

As to the last point, I am in too minds. I value physical shops and the support they give so are happy for them to have priority. After all I got 3 hours of someones time when I bought my bow, I would have found it a pain if the guy had to keep on popping out the back to deal with an online order.....
 

ben tarrow

Well-known member
So why do we have no access to those 2 or 3 main distributors?

If the shops can order single items from them, to mark up & sell on, isn't it just protectionism - supposedly frowned upon under 'free market capitalism' - to deny us the same access?

As to your final points about the shops, why should online customers, who know what they want & have already paid for it, have to suffer delays due to telephone/footfall people who will bang on for ages & maybe not buy anything at all? Shouldn't the people who have already paid for what they want get the highest priority?
Maybe the compromise here and what organisations like amazon have is suppliers who will ship direct to customers.
The suppliers or distributers are (usually bigger organisations with more stock and more employees who are already geared to packing the goods and shipping them.
At the moment, they're just shipping them to the shop.
Imagine if they shipped direct to the customer.
They'd have more leverage with the couriers so would be able to negotiate better delivery information and the dealers would maintain their sales
 

jonUK76

Member
A possible hitch is that if the UK leaves the EU on unfavourable terms (as looks likely), then as the major archery distributors are based in Belgium/Holland direct to customer shipping would likely result in duty, VAT and customs clearance fees being charged to the customer on receipt of said item. I expect there's ways around that, e.g. multitudes of Chinese eBay and Amazon sellers seem to sell from UK based warehouses, although whether they're "legit" and paying the correct amounts of VAT etc. as they seem to have cleared out the UK based competition in some product sectors, I wouldn't like to guess...
 

KidCurry

Well-known member
AIUK Saviour
The collective wisdom of the forum seems to support the supposition that the shops do indeed need to step up their game, especially when it comes to communications with the customer.
... and if they decide not to what will you do? You could decide with your feet but where would you go? Personally I am happy with archery shops keeping prices down even if it means I have to wait a week or so. Mind you I've never had to make an emergency archery order :). Or would people be happier paying more per product to cover larger stock holding for a faster service?
 

LionOfNarnia

Supporter
Supporter
Hmm, that's actually precisely what I did with this current order...

My #1 go-to shop - that when I needed a set of points after a total rookie screw-up on a Sunday, got them to me by Wednesday so I was able to shoot at the clubnight - didn't list the item I wanted

My #2 did list them, but it was a "6-8 weeks delivery" job

So I went with my #3, which was actually a couple of quid cheaper than #2 anyway

As consumers, we do have quite a lot of choice about where we spend our money - I've even ordered direct from Holland when I couldn't find a UK stockist who had what I needed - but atm there is no 'objective' measure of how well our outlets are actually performing. All we have is word-of-mouth from friends, clubmates, and yes, social media such as this forum.

To make it clear, what I'd like to see is shops being honest about stock levels, as the best of them do, and being better about communicating delivery expectations. What narks me is shops who claim to have stuff in stock but sit on the order for many days without saying a word about why.

To follow up on an earlier post, I've now had the tracking link emailed to me 'manually' by the shop dude. He said...

Tracking number below, we are trying to sort this with Royal Mail but are having some difficulty unfortunately.
 

chuffalump

Well-known member
...why should online customers, who know what they want & have already paid for it, have to suffer delays due to telephone/footfall people who will bang on for ages & maybe not buy anything at all? Shouldn't the people who have already paid for what they want get the highest priority?
No.

Despite me ordering almost everything online.

What is really needed is a separate shop and despatch operation. Only the shops can work out if this is financially viable for them. Or, as has been said, arrange to ship direct from distributor to your door. Mind you, this is the basis of one of the great internet cons - buy this one of a kind watch to commemorate the brave airmen who died in the Battle of Britain. Only ?25. Shipped direct to your door via Aliexpress where it cost ?1.99 and free shipping.

The shop staff will spend massive amounts of time dealing with Mr Beginners first bow and Ms Experts very expensive Uukha riser special order and the guy who spends three hours deciding if he wants 32lb Win & Win limbs or 34lb Hoyt Specials because they are on sale. The customer that gets this service is the customer who comes back and brings friends. Conversely, the customer who wants to buy a ?1K compound bow but can't talk to the shop staff, because they are out back boxing up three packs of feathers and some glue, is the customer who goes back to his club and tells them to go elsewhere. Internet customers who don't come back are invisible.

It would be much easier if there was no choice, everything was black and there was only one type of nock (in black). Nobody ever has the colours I want. I should be happy with black. šŸ˜¢
 

Corax67

Well-known member
Iā€™ve been waiting over 3 weeks for a set of 2ā€ fletchings (feather) and 60gn points to make up a dozen clout arrows for the forthcoming Kent Clout championships online from a retailer whoā€™d tagged on ?7 p&p for next day.

Chased today to be told not all of the points or fletchings had been in-stock and theyā€™d held the order pending new stock arrival which still hasnā€™t happened but they do this all the time and donā€™t bother to notify customers as itā€™s ā€œtheir standard practiceā€.

I politely told them to poke the order where the sun doesnā€™t shine, contacted my credit card issuer to sort out a refund, and I shall collect my bits from the brilliant Wales Archery on Friday as I pass by on my way to visit my family back home in the valleys for a few days.


Karl
 

jonUK76

Member
Iā€™ve been waiting over 3 weeks for a set of 2ā€ fletchings (feather) and 60gn points to make up a dozen clout arrows for the forthcoming Kent Clout championships online from a retailer whoā€™d tagged on ?7 p&p for next day.

Chased today to be told not all of the points or fletchings had been in-stock and theyā€™d held the order pending new stock arrival which still hasnā€™t happened but they do this all the time and donā€™t bother to notify customers as itā€™s ā€œtheir standard practiceā€.

I politely told them to poke the order where the sun doesnā€™t shine, contacted my credit card issuer to sort out a refund, and I shall collect my bits from the brilliant Wales Archery on Friday as I pass by on my way to visit my family back home in the valleys for a few days.


Karl
Sounds like a good example of taking the mick, and not the sort of service I guess many of us would put up with! One thing, I'm not sure why you'd need to go to your CC issuer for a refund as a matter of course, or did they refuse to cancel the order and refund? I'm pretty sure they cannot do that unless it's an order involving custom one off products, which this clearly wasn't.
 

KidCurry

Well-known member
AIUK Saviour
To make it clear, what I'd like to see is shops being honest about stock levels...
I agree. Even though I'm quite tolerant of delivery times, being honest about stock levels I think is singularly the most important aspect.
 

Whitehart

Well-known member
A serious questions as I am at a crossroads as to our future online direction.

Which online model would you prefer.

A) A shop that just lists what they recommend and stock, with the understanding that they can get almost anything else with a lead-time, but to order would require a phone call or visiting the shop.

Or

B) A shop that lists everything in the hope that it will be of interest to someone and lessen the fear of losing a sale, but have to buy it in to order with some doubt as to lead-times (which seems to be the current trend). Although we all know that there are many products we would not really want to sell as they are poor value for money and will cause dealers and customers issues in the very near future.

Thanks
Andrew

However, this will all pale into insignificance if we leave the EU without a deal.
 
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