Arrow rests - your thoughts

Mufti

Member
When we set up a bow and initially perform a crude tune we are advised that we are to ensure there is no arrow
contact with any part of the bow during the shot and that even the slightest touch might affect the arrow flight.

What then do flipper rests do?
Does the rest get "flipped" out of the way by the arrow?
If not why is it hinged?

I understand that some (few?) archers reverse the magnets so that the arm retracts upon release.
Some rests are fixed and are being used successfully (Hoyt, Beiter, etc).

Is a "moving arm" rest required or not?

I understand that a poor shot may need some forgivness, but ultimately we strive not to produce poor shots.
Are flipper rest then for archers who produce poor shots?

Guidance please.
 


geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
I think the rest is there to support the arrow( along with the button or equivalent) until the arrow reaches a speed where it is self supporting. Above that speed, the rest just gets in the way. However, for some of the power stroke, the shaft is not on the rest, as the flexing moves the shaft off the line. As the fletchings pass the rest they may make contact or may miss. With a light arm that is easily deflected, the contact will be pretty light and the shaft is waggling about anyway. It is the point that needs to get away cleanly.
If the contact was ripping off the fletchings, that would be more serious.
 


EVC

New member
Looking at slow motion videos, the arrow rear passes at a reasonable distance from the rest and button. And as you pointed out, some top archers use Hoyt Super Rest.
I believe that if the rest is an issue for an archer then either his setup is not good or technique is too poor or both. Thus it will make not difference if the rest retracts (the button will be still there. ;) );
 


Nigel Hewitt

New member
The arrow is sitting on this little wire minding its own business.
Then, suddenly, you drop the string on it accelerating it hard and also flicking it out from the bow at the back.
The 'flip' runs up the bow as a ripple actually faster than the arrow is moving so it flips the arrow away from the bow and off the rest.
The arrow is now falling however falling is slow and it is accelerating very fast.
You need to add all the 'archers paradox' stuff here to see how the ripple turns into a vibration but I'm not doing that here.
The arrow is effectively travelling parallel to its original alignment, only about an inch or so over but vibrating like mad.
Ideally the arrow is tuned to the bow and there is no more contact but most systems are only 'near enough' to prevent spine to bow contact.
The vibration is limited by the plunger to make the shaft stay away from the bow but as the fletchings come through they might tear on the rest's wire if it didn't fold away.
The arrow continues, effectively free falling, until the target's backing decelerates it hard.

There are some excellent mathematical studies on this and some quite wizzy slow-mo camera footage on the web. I'm trying to write it up but doing the graphics sucks.
 


Mufti

Member
but as the fletchings come through they might tear on the rest's wire if it didn't fold away.
So the arrow knocks the rest away then?
This surely is avoidable and unnecessary contact.

Do Hoyt rests also get knocked out of the way and Beiter rests (no matter how solid and robust)?
 


KidCurry

Well-known member
So the arrow knocks the rest away then?
This surely is avoidable and unnecessary contact.
Yes, the contact is avoidable with correct setup and perfect form. However no archer is perfect and a perfect setup is not easy. Therefore many archers will want to minimise the effect of contact if it happens.
 


Timid Toad

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Having done some high speed work I've found that some arrows off fast bows (and I mean 200fps+) are travelling tail end curved in towards the bow as it passes a riser. Slow bows' arrows pass by tail end out.
So, slow bows can cope with a fixed rest. The whole arrow moves away from the bow and the flex of the arrow is away from anything that might interfere. Fast bows are different, and a moving rest is an advantage. Friction of the moving (from a standstill) arrow pushes it towards the riser. Then the arrow bends away because the button is doing it's job, which means the nock end is towards the bow. However the slow moving rest has not yet recovered, and nor has the button. So the arrow can continue unimpeded.

I have some footage somewhere, I'll see if I can find it,
 


jerryRTD

Well-known member
Having done some high speed work I've found that some arrows off fast bows (and I mean 200fps+) are travelling tail end curved in towards the bow as it passes a riser. Slow bows' arrows pass by tail end out.
So, slow bows can cope with a fixed rest. The whole arrow moves away from the bow and the flex of the arrow is away from anything that might interfere. Fast bows are different, and a moving rest is an advantage. Friction of the moving (from a standstill) arrow pushes it towards the riser. Then the arrow bends away because the button is doing it's job, which means the nock end is towards the bow. However the slow moving rest has not yet recovered, and nor has the button. So the arrow can continue unimpeded.

I have some footage somewhere, I'll see if I can find it,
I never had any problems with clearance that you alued to when I was shooting my old Oneida Pro Eagle. Speed with a fingerl,oose must have been around 260 fps.
 


jerryRTD

Well-known member
go to the Werner Beiter web site and look at the ' way to the center videos and you can see the rear of the arrow flexingi clear of the rest as the arrow clears the bow.
 


Timid Toad

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I'm talking recurves. Even finger shot compounds behave differently.
As I say, I'll look out my slomo footage, which shows different results to Beiter's. His work is over 10 years old, and pre super-recurves, for example.
 


Rik

Supporter
Supporter
I'm talking recurves. Even finger shot compounds behave differently.
As I say, I'll look out my slomo footage, which shows different results to Beiter's. His work is over 10 years old, and pre super-recurves, for example.
Which may be why Border recommend going up a spine or so from the charts.

But, to return to the original question; I suspect that flip rests are strictly unnecessary, with properly matched kit. More marketing than substance. With unmatched kit (there's a surprising amount of that about) YMMV.
Yes a flip rest may (occasionally) minimise contact with the rest. They may also (sometimes) fold inconsistently, or before the shot goes... Pick your bug :)
 


Timid Toad

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Yes, I had the biggest problem with a wrap around. Most reliable has turned out to be a spig ironman 2. Lightweight, solid and cheap.
 


KidCurry

Well-known member
I'm talking recurves. Even finger shot compounds behave differently.
As I say, I'll look out my slomo footage, which shows different results to Beiter's. His work is over 10 years old, and pre super-recurves, for example.
If you could that would be really interesting. My instinct is with Jerry Tee.
 


Timid Toad

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Think it's on my old machine, I'll have a rummage tomorrow.
I know of someone else's research too, so I'll ask if I can borrow his - shot in Hawaii, his is lit better than mine!
 


jerryRTD

Well-known member
I'm talking recurves. Even finger shot compounds behave differently.
As I say, I'll look out my slomo footage, which shows different results to Beiter's. His work is over 10 years old, and pre super-recurves, for example.
I can't coment on 'normal' compounds. Oneidas are different in that they do behave like recurves due to the lack of cable guides and no cams at the end of the limbs. The recurve tip construction of the outer limbs gives a tip path identical to a short recurve
They do require a stif arrow I was using aa 340 ac super slim of 28.5 inches to get a good tune at a peak draw of around 58 lbs.
 


Senlac

Supporter
Supporter
I know the back end of my arrows can get very close indeed to the riser. I know this because if I orientate my vanes even slightly incorrectly I get tiny indentations on the leading edge of the vane closest to the rest. Indeed, if I orientate the vanes very incorrectly and use regular sized vanes I can even find chunks of vane gouged out by the rest!
This is of course only visible on soft vanes like Spinwings. On GasPros (hard) I never saw it, though it was probably still happening.
And, amazingly, even when it is happening (i.e. the vane is touching the rest on release), the arrows can still group with the others in the red/gold at 80y. I.e. up to a gents BM standard you may have vanes touching the rest and still be delivering good groups and scores.
Kit: recurve, 37# on fingers, 200fps, ACE 670s with 100grn points and low profile spinwings, Shibuya wire rest. Arrows well tuned to bow: fletched/unfletched arrows within 3" at 25y and good brown paper test results.
 


jerryRTD

Well-known member
personally I would not be happy with 3" if the bare shaft was indicating stiff by three inches then I would expect clearance issues.
 


buzz lite beer

Well-known member
Just in the interest of bare shaft tuning, I've shot what I consider excellent scores both MB and GMB recurve where my bare shafts have been no where close to the fletched shafts (10+ inches or so off at 30m and off the boss at 70m) but both foot powder tests and high speed footage have shown I had good clearance, and also I've shot good MB scores were after almost every other shot the arrow rest got stuck under the button indicating bad clearance
 


geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
When you watch what the arrow goes through in slow mo even with a clean launch, it makes me wonder if any contact with a light arm would be visible on similar slow mo view. I don't mean would we see the contact move the ar; but would the contact displace the back of the arrow any more than it was on the clean launch.
I guess that having the shaft hit the riser would be obvious and show in other ways.(noise and strange wobbles that are visible to the naked aye at the time of the shot)
 


ajh499

New member
When you watch what the arrow goes through in slow mo even with a clean launch, it makes me wonder if any contact with a light arm would be visible on similar slow mo view. I don't mean would we see the contact move the ar; but would the contact displace the back of the arrow any more than it was on the clean launch.
I guess that having the shaft hit the riser would be obvious and show in other ways.(noise and strange wobbles that are visible to the naked aye at the time of the shot)
I doubt that you'd see contact with a light rest arm influencing the arrow. The tail of the arrow is flicking around anyway, I'd be very surprised if you could tell the difference between a clean launch and one with contact from the reaction of the arrow passing by. The contact influenced motion would be lost in the noise, I think, especially with the variations introduced by the release. Maybe with a shooting machine, but it wold still be a tiny difference.

When I get a chance (hopefully this evening) I'll post a couple of videos I've taken over the last couple of weeks that show contact between the rest and arrow shaft quite nicely.

There's no noticable effect on the arrow, and I think it would be very hard to tell that this was happening without the slow motion video.
I was only looking as I'm in the process of deciding on which spine to go for to replace my too stiff 620 ACEs, and I was really wanting to triple check that the new ones (670 or 720) were clearing OK.


Alex
 


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