Border limbs

M

Mark R

Guest
Just to add to the CXT/ border limb discussion my Hex 5's contacted the limb pocket as described here but also further down where the square bottom met the pocket before bottoming out on eithet the dove tail or limb bolt.
To be honest I'd say that hex 5's aren't compatible with CXT's.
 

BorderBows

New member
Just to add to the CXT/ border limb discussion my Hex 5's contacted the limb pocket as described here but also further down where the square bottom met the pocket before bottoming out on eithet the dove tail or limb bolt.
To be honest I'd say that hex 5's aren't compatible with CXT's.
please discribe to everyone then which part of the design in non-standard?
We fit (and i know because ive tried them personally), Hoyt, bernadini, fiberbow, Sky, Morrison, Spigarelli, Stolid Bull, All other W&W risers, Samick, Seb Flute, Tradtech, TAC, Zipper, Best, Dryad, KG, PSE, Petron, Merlin, Greenhorn, Uukha, and BMG risers, and least of all KAP risers.


So, what makes the CXT unique, and why dont the rest of the ILF limbs have problems with this riser? why is it just border hex5.
 

BorderBows

New member
MB to under bowman is a significant drop just for a limb change, but if you've gone from no contact to significant contact, that could do it. Perhaps try other brace height choices - perhaps higher than Border recommendations, and also look at form to see what could be done to give you more margin for error.
being higher than the manufacturers recomendations can put you in difficulty with aftercare support. I wouldnt recomend to anyone going out side the manufacturers recomendations unless willing to forgo warrenty...

With good propper techneque, a low brace hieght below 6.5" is the start problems for most archers.
below that and people start hitting thier arm with ANY bow longbows, flatbows, trad recurves and target bows. (compounds excluded) 7-8" is a clear zone, while 9-10 is clear for even bad techneque.

Other than that, i think your spot on... it does sound like a techneque change. (or spine)
Have you changed your grip lately?
 
M

Mark R

Guest
I've only tried Hex 5's, CXB's and Inno primes into mine so can't say why its unique to hex 5's.
I have to say that I find your reply a little over defensive, I did not place any blame or suggest who's product differs from what has become ILF.
I merely stated that in my opinion they do not go together well, and nobody spending that kind of money (on riser or limbs) should be happy with anything less than a good fit.
 

Timid Toad

Moderator
Staff member
Supporter
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Ironman
My target bow is a CXT/HexV combination. It shoots GMB scores, even with me on the other end of it. Perfectly compatible within the variety of the ILF system...
Mark R should openly state he has an axe to grind against Border before making such comments.
 
M

Mark R

Guest
My previous dealings with border are not relevent here so I didn't mention them.
I'm sure border would rather that was forgotten rather than dragging it up everytime I post.
 

BorderBows

New member
I've only tried Hex 5's, CXB's and Inno primes into mine so can't say why its unique to hex 5's.
I have to say that I find your reply a little over defensive, I did not place any blame or suggest who's product differs from what has become ILF.
I merely stated that in my opinion they do not go together well, and nobody spending that kind of money (on riser or limbs) should be happy with anything less than a good fit.
sorry for the defensive jump. id like to change the inference on your comment then. Its the CXT that is not compatable with Border hex5 limbs. Afterall, our limbs have been out longer than the CXT?

The Limb butt on all our limbs from end of limb butt to 1" past the rocker are all identical on all of our limbs. The rocker to end of fadeout is 1/4" shorter on the CX series limbs.
1" past the rocker puts you past the riser. so all our limbs should fit identically.

This problem is 110% avoided if the pivot point of the limb is where the dovetail sits. As per the hoyt style. Hoyt get out this problem with thier risers as they have the rocker defined by the dowel that is the alignment system in the riser, as it sits higher than the pocket base. As this is where the limbs are meant to pivot when adjusting bow weight or tiller.

The risers with flat bottom pockets (Best, bernadini Spigarelli, samicks, Kaps, etc) or rockers where the dovetail assembly is proud of the pocket base (hoyt) all work fine with all limbs. this problem only arrises because the rocker plate is quite some distance infront of where everyone else mounts thier limbs.
I do also beleave that the Tower effect concept was also released before the advent of these "corrective" shims to straighten a twisted riser so the two are not a collaberative design attribute.
 
M

Mark R

Guest
Its the CXT that is not compatable with Border hex5 limbs. Afterall, our limbs have been out longer than the CXT?

.

Thats another way of saying the same thing and neither are wrong, I doubt any riser manufacturer checks anothers limb fit when developing new products so its more than likely they'll grow apart eventually.

The biggest issue will be for Limb manufacturers like yourself who make limbs for all risers.

The problems I encountered with my set up came about as a squeek as the bow was drawn (caused by the contact at the limb butt) until sufficient paint was removed to create clearance.
As mentioned I now shoot Inno primes so have not investigated the problen further
 

BorderBows

New member
Thats another way of saying the same thing and neither are wrong, I doubt any riser manufacturer checks anothers limb fit when developing new products so its more than likely they'll grow apart eventually.

The biggest issue will be for Limb manufacturers like yourself who make limbs for all risers.

The problems I encountered with my set up came about as a squeek as the bow was drawn (caused by the contact at the limb butt) until sufficient paint was removed to create clearance.
As mentioned I now shoot Inno primes so have not investigated the problen further
As mentioned above, by Buzz, his top end Samick riser needed the adjustment "shoe" to be milled flush with the base of the pocket for some limbs to fit... makes you wonder if even Samick limbs will fit Samick risers.
tight fitting components are not the main problem here.. a lick of paint too tight wont cause limb tip movement, quite the opposite. What you dont want is left right movement, and there are plenty of risers out there with this problem.
Hoyt have come up with an entirly new bolt to solve the squeek that some people commented on with Hoyt Formula bows. So even Hoyt on Hoyt have fun idiosyncracies if im not mistaken. so the one stop shop isnt bullet proof either.
 

Murray

Well-known member
Ironman
American Shoot
AIUK Saviour
being higher than the manufacturers recomendations can put you in difficulty with aftercare support. I wouldnt recomend to anyone going out side the manufacturers recomendations unless willing to forgo warrenty...

With good propper techneque, a low brace hieght below 6.5" is the start problems for most archers.
below that and people start hitting thier arm with ANY bow longbows, flatbows, trad recurves and target bows. (compounds excluded) 7-8" is a clear zone, while 9-10 is clear for even bad techneque.

Other than that, i think your spot on... it does sound like a techneque change. (or spine)
Have you changed your grip lately?
Good point re:warranty, although I'd like to see a manufacturer prove the bow had been shot out of recommendations...

Anyway, I shoot 9in (23cm in real money) and I still graze the armguard. Not sure my technique is THAT bad :) The reason I shoot 9in is that with my shaft selection, high speed has shown that to give me excellent clearance and good nodal alignment, which is what I need. Low brace heights just have never worked for me.

Set yourself up with a Beiter-like facility with 5000fps video and I'll come along and we can investigate the differences together :)
 

BorderBows

New member
Good point re:warranty, although I'd like to see a manufacturer prove the bow had been shot out of recommendations...
that doesnt fill us with much confidence...

We make a product and setup stress levels so that it performs and have recoemndations that are well known and published, and your suggesting, we the manufacturer are at the mercy of denial and deception in the case of a accident. just because your cynical of low brace hieghts.

How about Cherry Lyne putting in GMB scores, and Greg Brown Shooting a 1250, Nathan Lidiard, Taking Norwegan Barebow National Fita 18 Meter indoor records, and just last weekend a new to Border customer taking the Washington state Safari Record (10 years standing) with 8" or lower brace heights (on our facebook page). Greg Shooting a 72" Hex6 RX, Nathan Shooting a Stolid Bull Thunder riser 70" string walking, Reynald Sarns Shooting a Bernadini Nilo, Barebow, and Cherry here shooting the Inno CXT riser.
All these folks have no problems with clearance.

This is one of the reasons why we get defensive on these kinds of threads. We have to be transparent, upfront and honest, when the public are socially allowed to say what they like to profiteer from there OWN errors.
 

Timid Toad

Moderator
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If it doesn't work for Murray, it doesn't work for him. He's still within manufacturer's recommendations for what he is shooting. (just :))

I think the cynical attitude works both ways. How many threads on here about folk taking faulty stuff back to the shop they bought it from and having to work really hard to convince the retailer they haven't damaged anything by mishandling, and coming back to here for advice on warranty issues. Some (and I do mean some, not all) shops are very good at fobbing off. It is endemic. I know of a shop that fits the wrong length cables to a compound because they don't have the right ones, not tell the archer and respond to complaints "we just wanted to get you shooting". When shops have this attitude to manufacturers' recommendations what chance do you have? Then again, tried getting in touch with Hoyt or Win and Win directly?

Unfortunately archers in this country are used to being told that no matter what happened we caused the damage and Border gets tarred by the same brush.
 

Murray

Well-known member
Ironman
American Shoot
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For the record, I'd rather shoot within manufacturer's recommendation and work with them to make it work, but others are not so honest. My point is that a warranty condition is only as good as your ability to prove it has been broken (same goes for any contract/patent/legal document). As TT says, it works both ways. Not all manufacturers are as open and honest.

I love the border guys and their products, the only reason I don't shoot them is that I've never had the opportunity to make them work for me... maybe before Rio, but certainly not before London!
 

BorderBows

New member
For the record, I'd rather shoot within manufacturer's recommendation and work with them to make it work, but others are not so honest. My point is that a warranty condition is only as good as your ability to prove it has been broken (same goes for any contract/patent/legal document). As TT says, it works both ways. Not all manufacturers are as open and honest.

I love the border guys and their products, the only reason I don't shoot them is that I've never had the opportunity to make them work for me... maybe before Rio, but certainly not before London!
Sorry for jumping at you there Murray, You only expressed what we feel happens anyhow.
I understand that, its just when you try your upmost to be helpfull, approachable, and fair, it sometimes feels like you become the whipping boy for other peoples accidents. and we dont feel that is quite right.

We are working very hard at the moment (yesterday mainly) to come up with a complete table of recomendations to be hosted in our Resources section of our new site.
That way people will see what we officially recomend. and it keeps things clear.
 

blakey

Active member
We are working very hard at the moment (yesterday mainly) to come up with a complete table of recomendations to be hosted in our Resources section of our new site.
That way people will see what we officially recomend. and it keeps things clear.
Hi Sid, am I right in thinking that Hexs require a stiffer arrow than all the other slower breeds, and do you/did you have a spine chart with your recommends for your supersonic kit? Cheers
 

BorderBows

New member
Hi Sid, am I right in thinking that Hexs require a stiffer arrow than all the other slower breeds, and do you/did you have a spine chart with your recommends for your supersonic kit? Cheers
We did have, but we used to use glass in our bows. we dont now, so its all invalid. So we have started again.

We also have a minimum GPP for our bows, and its based on the energy in the bow and not a blanket statement. Since long draws and high poundage bows shoot harder... if you remove the 80% energy consumed by the arrow, you will still end up with 20" and 20% of 30ft/lbs is less than 20% of 100ft/lbs. so we have taken this into consideration with our recomandations.
This applies to all aspects such as a 2" draw to dry fire is fine, yet 30" is a no no. thats bacuse of the stored energy, so the minimum GPP is draw length specific too.

we are reworking this for the newer faster harder punching Hex series...
oh and the spine charts were mainly to help those with Wooden arrows. since wooden arrows are statically spined for the likes of longbows with no window and slow shooting performance, compaired to modern bows. so an adjustment is needed.

but as an example, we have 55lb short bows of 62" to 64" shooting GT Hunter Carbon arrows 75-95 with 200-300 grains up front. 29-30"

We have discovered though that window depth of cut (centreshot) and torsional stability all effect arrow spine as does brace height a little. So every change needs a bit of a recalc, as does overall bow length
 

BorderBows

New member
If it doesn't work for Murray, it doesn't work for him. He's still within manufacturer's recommendations for what he is shooting. (just :))

I think the cynical attitude works both ways. How many threads on here about folk taking faulty stuff back to the shop they bought it from and having to work really hard to convince the retailer they haven't damaged anything by mishandling, and coming back to here for advice on warranty issues. Some (and I do mean some, not all) shops are very good at fobbing off. It is endemic. I know of a shop that fits the wrong length cables to a compound because they don't have the right ones, not tell the archer and respond to complaints "we just wanted to get you shooting". When shops have this attitude to manufacturers' recommendations what chance do you have? Then again, tried getting in touch with Hoyt or Win and Win directly?

Unfortunately archers in this country are used to being told that no matter what happened we caused the damage and Border gets tarred by the same brush.
i heard an expression that i quite liked.
Whats the difference between a chicken and a pig?
A chicken is motivated to the egg, the pig is commited to the bacon.

We are commited to our product, dealers are not commited to the brand you might have bought in the same way.
Our companies lively hood is based on us making our product work, For us, for you. thats why we have to be real, open, honest and supportive. Without our reputation we cant switch brand, we are commited .
For that reason, we offer money back on custom and off the shelf product if we havent met your expectations. (within time limits).
Those expectations even include, you expect your house boiler to last longer than it takes for us to make what you want. If it doesnt we will cancel the order. so if you have an unexpected bill in the 6-8 weeks we take to make a set of limbs to your spec, we will cancel the order and not ask a restocking fee... The only one we do have is a restock fee is on draw weights. We dont want people saying i want 34lbs, oh no 36, oh no, can you send the 34's again. actually, i'll send this set back, id like a refund. but im sure thats understandable.
 

Phil Reay

New member
when i spoke to you on the phone, you recommended taking down the bracing height from my normal 8 3/4" to 7 1/2 - 8. the bh usually starts at 8 and with string stretch, goes down to 7 3/4 with a few arrows so it's about in the centre of where you told me. I have not changed my grip and i do target archery with the X10s and field archery with my alluminiums, with the same grip and the alis don't hit my arm. I've been reading through these threads and there is one saying that he had to hold the fibrebow. that's something i've never done and have to be very careful to put my wrist strap on or the bow follows the arrow up the field. if you don't mind, i'll send the bow and limbs back to you after this weekend (i've got hampshire v sussex comp and i haven't practiced with my old Marksman bow for some months so sight marks are going to be a problem) as you said you could put the alluminium inserts in. Let me know how much it will cost me and i can sort it over the phone.
Thanks Sid
Phil
 

BorderBows

New member
when i spoke to you on the phone, you recommended taking down the bracing height from my normal 8 3/4" to 7 1/2 - 8. the bh usually starts at 8 and with string stretch, goes down to 7 3/4 with a few arrows so it's about in the centre of where you told me. I have not changed my grip and i do target archery with the X10s and field archery with my alluminiums, with the same grip and the alis don't hit my arm. I've been reading through these threads and there is one saying that he had to hold the fibrebow. that's something i've never done and have to be very careful to put my wrist strap on or the bow follows the arrow up the field. if you don't mind, i'll send the bow and limbs back to you after this weekend (i've got hampshire v sussex comp and i haven't practiced with my old Marksman bow for some months so sight marks are going to be a problem) as you said you could put the alluminium inserts in. Let me know how much it will cost me and i can sort it over the phone.
Thanks Sid
Phil
Ok, we will double check what is going on with the bow when we get it... I can say im very intreged by the ali's not hitting your arm and carbons do.
Can you list the spine, Point weight, insert weight, Arrow length, Fletching type... of the two arrow types you use?

also, have you bare shafted these two arrows, if so what results do you get?

Have you back to back shot these two arrows, to see if its a form change since you shot one, to the other arrow?
also nock fit?
 

Phil Reay

New member
I'm sorry Whitehart. Pop over to where? I will admit, i already have a weight on the bottom part of the riser to stop the bow kicking up and hitting me on the head. used to catch it with my little finger but my coach stopped me doing that as it was jerking the bow.
 
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