Changes in the wind

KidCurry

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I was shooting yesterday and, getting near the end of the session, I was walking to the target with a coach. He's was not coaching, I have never had a coach, just chatting about form and H/Cs but specifically I had two goals for this year. I mentioned I was quite please to be shooting around 30H/C barebow but would like to finish the season around 27H/C. No real reason other than I think it would be cool to shoot Recurve MB with a barebow 🤣
He said he would have a look at my form on the next couple of ends and suggested I was rolling my bow shoulder in on the draw. It was about an inch. He suggested setting the shoulder before the draw. I don't coach but I watch a lot of video form, mostly female Korean woman. I noticed, without exception they all set their shoulder first.
So I thought I would look at old footage to see how archery form has changed and chose Darrell Pace...1984
I have to say, if he was on the line today I doubt he would stand out of the 'accepted format' crowd. Anyway, will set my shoulder and wait for those 27H/C scores to come rolling in :ROFLMAO:
 

Bandit

Active member
I rather like Jake Kaminski's form. He's a product of Kisik Lee as a coach.

 

KidCurry

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I rather like Jake Kaminski's form. He's a product of Kisik Lee as a coach.
Yes... I've watched him also, mainly because he has moved to barebow and produced a video on creeping. But I don't like the alignment on the draw. I have been comparing it to the Koreans, especially the women, they tend to keep the whole system much tighter in. I have watched Brady Ellison shoot and he appears to use the exact same technique as Jake. I have video'd and compared my technique with both Brady and Darrell and it appears much closer to Darrell. Mind you I would be happy with 1300 points on a WA1440 round, well at least for a while :)
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Setting the shoulder first gets it over with. Less chance to forget. Plus, with the draw about to start, a low shoulder can be helped to stay down by the forces generated through the draw.
 

KidCurry

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The KSL shot cycle is explained here, his shooting style was the basis of the Korean coaching technique when he was the head coach prior to being headhunted (at great expense) by the USA team.
Thanks Geophys2, hope you are keeping well. I've seen that KSL process in the past but never associated it with Brady Ellison or the Koreans as the KSL cycle states you draw straight back to a position 2-3" below the chin then come directly up to anchor. Brady and most/all Koreans draw with a high drawing hand "The string must be dawn back in a straight line to about 2" - 3" below the chin - see photo B "
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Is the KSL now out dated? Non of the top Koreans do this.
 

KidCurry

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Setting the shoulder first gets it over with. Less chance to forget. Plus, with the draw about to start, a low shoulder can be helped to stay down by the forces generated through the draw.
Low shoulder has never been a problem. Next three months practice sorted :)
 
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geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Taking up a point from KSL and the draw being "a straight line".
Has he changed his teaching on this?
I thought the draw was a curve as that doesn't require use of the biceps.
I used a release aid that was strung onto an elbow sling. My draw forearm had no contact with the strings supporting the release aid; and my hand rested on the release body, but did not deflect its path, which was a curve. So the release body and, therefore the string nock point, followed a curve towards my eye line as full draw was being reached.
To prevent that curve would have meant pressing the string to my left as the draw progressed; using my hand and biceps.
 

KidCurry

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Taking up a point from KSL and the draw being "a straight line".
Has he changed his teaching on this?
Morning Geoff
I was wondering this. It is clear that Brady Ellison keeps the draw line through the arrow and forearm straight. This means the draw hand must move away from the face then come back into align and the bow direction changes as a result. This is a good example of the alignment prior to anchor.

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This also means the shoulder is not set and will roll in during the initial draw.
Jake Kaminski also does this...
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Koreans don't do this. It is quite clear they are happy to have a break at the wrist to permit the shoulder set and a draw that comes straight back to the face.

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You can clearly see the wrist break. I may have a chat with some coaches about this. It would be interesting to know what the UK coaching policy is.
 
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geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
I am pondering on the set shoulder, idea.
With my compound, I cannot reach the bow string, if I raise the bow and set the bow shoulder, then reach for the string.
I can set the shoulder down, at the start, but the line from front shoulder to rear shoulder rotates as I draw in a curve.
With a recurve, I can raise my arms and set the shoulder down and aligned, because I can draw the couple of inches on that... as that is the easy stage of its draw.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
On the same theme, but at a bit of a tangent. I don't like to see beginners deliberately trying to draw a straight line. It seems to make the draw ponderous and complicated as they watch the string and the sight at the same time as drawing.It's like they are aiming all through the draw; often dipping their head for a better view.
 

LAC Mark

Active member
I've never really understood why the bow shoulder is so important, but have been following this thread. Yesterday down the range one of our other archers pointed out that my bow shoulder is high and not in line, so we worked on a low draw, setting the shoulder at the start.
It's early days but it seams to help.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Two things that I feel partly answer that question. A draw length will shorten under full draw pressure if the front shoulder is allowed to creep upwards. If you shrug your shoulder from a low position you will see it rise and head towards your chin, shortening draw length. It is easy for clicker shooters to fall into the trap as they draw through the clicker. The rising shoulder brings the bow closer and no draw length increase follows. Next is to worry about why the clicker hasn't gone off.
The second reason is that at full draw the bow shoulder gets a bit of help from the bow, trying to raise the bow arm from the wrist, and hinging on the shoulder. At release there is a sudden drop in that help, and a shoulder that isn't prepared for it will collapse; just at the worst possible time; while the arrows is still on the string.
 

Bandit

Active member
Two things that I feel partly answer that question. A draw length will shorten under full draw pressure if the front shoulder is allowed to creep upwards. If you shrug your shoulder from a low position you will see it rise and head towards your chin, shortening draw length. It is easy for clicker shooters to fall into the trap as they draw through the clicker. The rising shoulder brings the bow closer and no draw length increase follows. Next is to worry about why the clicker hasn't gone off.
The second reason is that at full draw the bow shoulder gets a bit of help from the bow, trying to raise the bow arm from the wrist, and hinging on the shoulder. At release there is a sudden drop in that help, and a shoulder that isn't prepared for it will collapse; just at the worst possible time; while the arrows is still on the string.
....and this is why I don't shoot recurve. It's so damn picky :LOL:
 

KidCurry

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I've never really understood why the bow shoulder is so important, but have been following this thread.
High left and low right.
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A high shoulder creates an angle (triangle) that requires a lot of energy to maintain. It is dependent on muscle to maintain. The low shoulder is a straight line bone on bone that requires little muscle energy to maintain.
 
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KidCurry

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It's just as important for compounds but compounds do have an easier time. Because the generally low holding weight it is easier to set the shoulder after the peak draw weight is past. Sara Lopez shows the high shoulder during the peak draw...
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then drops the shoulder...
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