Crowded Shooting Line, any solutions?

AndyS

Supporter
Supporter
The club's insurance cover is not the same as the clubs members individual insurance cover.

Think of it like a haulage company. If the haulage company knowingly allows one of its drivers to drive under circumstances that would disallow that drivers insurance (drunk, on drugs, health issues, defective vehicle etc) then that could invalidate the companies insurance if that driver had an accident. It would NOT however, invalidate the insurance of the other drivers.

Similarly, if the club (committee) allow someone to shoot without agb membership/insurance then the club committee could be held liable in the case of an accident and I can see how the insurance company might not want to extend cover to the club committee under those circumstances. Therefore its in the best interests of the club committee members to take all reasonable steps to ensure that all shooting members are covered. My insurance, as a shooting member cannot be affected by the actions of someone else unless I knowingly collude or conspire with that person in such a was as to make myself liable either explicitly or implicitly.

That said, this information is my opinion and carries no warranty or guarantee and is provided as is as a general guide for information only.
That's pretty much what I'd assumed, but all the answers I received made is seem more that AGB insure shooting activities at the grounds of AGB clubs where only AGB members are shooting. As a paid up member of AGB you are covered by this insurance, but I'm not sure that the individual is insured. If I as an individual am insured, then surely the cover should be valid if I shoot in compliance with the rules of shooting - but apparently not - see a couple of the other Q&A:


If I shoot at an AGB club and comply with the rules of shooting, but another member chooses to shoot at a distance that does not comply with the rules of shooting for the range (eg I shoot at 60 yds on a field that is 120yds long, but another archer chooses to shoot at 100yds, 30yds longer than ?safe?) then Is my third party cover still valid given that I am still compliant with the rules?


As above ? all members must strictly comply with the Archery GB Rules of Shooting to be covered by the Archery GB insurance cover.

and

If as an AGB member I shoot at a non-AGB club, but on a range that fully complies with the AGB rules of shooting, would my AGB third party cover still apply?
If you shoot at a non-Archery GB Club, the Archery GB Insurance cover would not apply.
Likewise on my opinion, no warranty or guarantees :), but the above quotes are taken from replies received from AGB in December 2016, so I thought they might be of interest - they certainly weren't what I was expecting when I asked the questions.
 


ben tarrow

Active member
AGB membership requirement would make it hard to do beginners courses or have-a-go's.....
Except the archery gb insurance specifically states that insurance covers people for 6 sessions prior to joining the society. This is where all the myths come from that a beginners course MUST be 6 sessions. No, just NOT MORE than 6 lessons.
Still a grey area though "before joining the society", so someone who was a member 40 years ago and wants to do a beginners course, are they covered?

Have-a-go sessions and taster sessions are covered under the code of practise for have a gos , documents downloadable from AGB
 


ben tarrow

Active member
That's pretty much what I'd assumed, but all the answers I received made is seem more that AGB insure shooting activities at the grounds of AGB clubs where only AGB members are shooting. As a paid up member of AGB you are covered by this insurance, but I'm not sure that the individual is insured. If I as an individual am insured, then surely the cover should be valid if I shoot in compliance with the rules of shooting - but apparently not - see a couple of the other Q&A:



Likewise on my opinion, no warranty or guarantees :), but the above quotes are taken from replies received from AGB in December 2016, so I thought they might be of interest - they certainly weren't what I was expecting when I asked the questions.
Regarding your quotes, the first one, they've sidestepped the question somewhat. You wouldnt be responsible for what someone else does, unless they wanted to argue that you were implicit in "permitting" them to shoot in an unsafe manner. The club "could" be liable, if there was an accident caused by the archer shooting unsafely and that archer could prove he/she was doing so with the knowledge of the club. Hypothetical situation: archer shooting unsafely kills someone and that persons relatives sue the archer for ?5,000,000. The archer might try to move some of the liability to someone else, ie the club, by saying they werent made aware that the distance was unsafe. They might try to move some liability to you by claiming that you didnt tell him/her either, but was it your responsibility to tell him/her?

The second quote, AGB insurance ONLY covers you to shoot at ranges registered with AGB, so shooting at a non AGB registered range would not comply.

At the end of the day, an insurance company will always try to avoid saying that you are absolutely definitely covered for something, and any statement to that effect will always be dotted with caveats and clauses as a back door for them to get out if necessary. Ultimately the final decision will be that of the law courts and justice system, which, one would hope, would always act in the realm of what is reasonable, or what a reasonable person would do or be reasonably expected to do.

Is it your responsibility to say "hey non gender specific archer, you're not allowed to shoot that distance! Its not safe" ? Hell yes, every time. But do you have a responsibility to the unsafe archer? Probably not, responsibility for your own actions
 


KidCurry

Well-known member
I think one of the issues with insurance documents is they do not specify every possible permutation of events. When not clearly specified the law courts step in to make a judgement. It is why hypothetical scenarios are not very useful. Case law is the best place to start as this is where the courts start. The SAP document is relatively clear; horrendously written, but relatively clear.
I think it is important for committee members and temporary field captains to know what responsibilities they take on when volunteering and I think this is the weakest part of the document and I think a booklet on their legal responsibilities and liabilities would be useful for clubs and new/potential volunteers if one doesn't exist.
 


Kernowlad

Member
Youve hit our nail on the head geoff
Even indoors, the beginners shoot at one end of the hall, the novices tend to congregate on the next few bosses and the most experienced archers tend to migrate to the other end of the hall.
Subsequently I get the experienced archers complaining that they can see the novices doing such and such the other side of the hall.
So as we go outdoors in the next couple of weeks, how do I persuade the experienced archers to come down from their 70m ivory towers and shoot 20,30 or 40m with the lesser mortal novices?
We have been experiencing SO much cliqueyness that we have decided to stop attending our club. And with only two rounds shot, that?s a lot of money for each round; ?65 each. It?s not greater experience; we can hold our own but when I recently scored a good round coming first and beating my coach, not ONE person said a positive word. Yet the response to those in the clique that get even an average score is deafening.

While many would say just brush it off and carry on, it has really annoyed me and it should have been a positive thing. It?s probably because we don?t attend often although we can use the range any time; we have lots on and club nights clash too.

But I?m not sure that?s a good reason to completely ignore us.

The people are mostly nice enough, the range is very decent but the impossibly tight clique has driven us away. Add a very depressing AGM to that list too in which I said we need to encourage kids to which the replies were pretty much ?we tried, it doesn?t work so we?ve given up.? Not handy when your son shoots at the club...

We never get asked to shoot for the club either.

On the other hand while our field club is far away and they don?t shoot often, they are very welcoming, have asked us to shoot for them already and are also very welcoming to kids; the future IMO.

It?s a shame but we?ve had enough of the target club.
 


Kerf

Supporter
Supporter
We shoot four to a boss, max 5, in two details. More than that and a new new boss is put up. End of problem. More experienced archers tend to congregate on the longer distance bosses but we move to the shorter distances with the newbies to give advice and coach. Much easier to do show and tell when advising/coaching than just telling someone what they’re doing wrong.
 


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