Define "Traditional Bow"

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Del the Cat

Well-known member
When I get jumped all over by the Trad Police that my CNC Recurve isn't Trad, I enjoy giving them a history lesson, in India during the 1500's to mid 1600's they were making Damacus T/D Recurves, just how old does a design have to be before it's considered "Trad"
Yeah, they've made Damascus steel for a long time...
But, just a thought I think maybe it's the CNC that's not tradional?
I use CAD extensively, but in my case it's 'Cardboard Aided Design' :)
Del
 


steve Morley

New member
I use CAD extensively, but in my case it's 'Cardboard Aided Design' :)
Del
Nice one lol


I think it doesn't matter what you shoot in competition, somebody will dislike you choices. In the late 90's I had a lot of hassle from a vocal few who didn't like my choice of AFB in the NFAS (21st Century Edge), even though it was within the rules and passed by the Exec, basically if you wern't shooting a Hill style bow Instinctively you were cheating, it was a small group of 10-15 people but they were very opinionated/vocal about the whole thing, even had some guy march up towards me at Nationals as I was about to take a shot and started screaming at me, I politely asked him to go and address his problem with the Exec, I never saw him again. lol
 


Trad is as trad does

Nice one lol


I think it doesn't matter what you shoot in competition, somebody will dislike you choices. In the late 90's I had a lot of hassle from a vocal few who didn't like my choice of AFB in the NFAS (21st Century Edge), even though it was within the rules and passed by the Exec, basically if you wern't shooting a Hill style bow Instinctively you were cheating, it was a small group of 10-15 people but they were very opinionated/vocal about the whole thing, even had some guy march up towards me at Nationals as I was about to take a shot and started screaming at me, I politely asked him to go and address his problem with the Exec, I never saw him again. lol
Screamers like that are why some of us carry skinning knives. I need to update the reference to my bow. The yew and Bubinga CFB, laminated with fibreglass, was destroyed in a traffic mishap last year, so Greg Birtwistle built me a custom 71" flatbow from bamboo and 'glass. It rubs wood purists the wrong way, but so does the repurposed sidearm holster that I use as a quiver.
 


iangriffin

New member
I am addicted to Traditional archery. So much so I make my own. I can only give my opinion, as what it is or is not can't be defined correctly. So here it is. Once upon a time man or woman picked up a stick and used it as a weapon. Later, someone tied a string to both ends and put a smaller stick between stick and string. TWANG the bow and arrow was born. After that time, they found that if you bend the tips away from you the arrow comes out faster. More distance. The Bow became very famous around the world. Not every country or continent had access to the same materials. Not everybody had good bow making wood. Some used Bamboo instead, some used different woods glued together (Laminated). In one case, they had to put two bows together to make one good one (Penobscott). Some even Used wood Horn and sinew (composite). One day the Firearm repeater was invented and the Bow lost most of its popularity. The Sport/Martial Art of Archery faded away. But, one day Archery started to re-emerge. No one knows who did this but in the U.K. it was probably the Victorians. They revived the Sport of Archery, not the martial art side. Abraham Lincoln once said '' Any fool can pull a trigger but it takes 30years to become an Archer''. Then something very bad happend. As Archery gained in popularity, Greedy, Slimey creatures decided there was money to be made. They could not match the quality of Boyers and make a profit. So, they used synthetic materials and what they called improvements. Arrow rests, stabilisers, sights, pressure buttons and Wheels/cams etc. They even started special events that were specific to their own products. Products that were designed to make a beginner an expert in a fraction of the time. How was this possible?
Simply by virtue of the lack of skill, knowledge, practise and experience that was not needed any more.
So with this in mind. I think traditional should mean anything is allowed that PRE-DATES the GREEDY,SLIMEY, CREATURES INTERFERENCE. ​The End
 


English Bowman

Active member
Then something very bad happend. As Archery gained in popularity, Greedy, Slimey creatures decided there was money to be made. They could not match the quality of Boyers and make a profit. So, they used synthetic materials and what they called improvements. [/B]​The End
Ian, you may not like modern bows, but before you label bowyers who choose to make modern bows greedy slimy creatures who can't make decent bows, try chatting to a few of them. Sid from Border, Keith from KG Archery, Andy Soars from Blackbrook archery or Pete Bakewell from Bakewell bows. You may learn something from them.

I've spoken to all of them, and learned from each of them. The one thing they all have in common is a love of archery and a passion for their craft. Another thing that they have in common is that they don't bad mouth other bowyers, even the two who I know can't stand each other will not slag each other off, they just say that they've had a disagreement and leave it at that.

I know that at least two of these make traditional longbows as well as modern bows, and the quality of their work is excellent. You may not like modern bows, but insulting the skilled men who make them is unnecessary.
 


iangriffin

New member
Hi thanks for the reply.
I think you mis understood a bit of what I wrote. I am not bad mouthing other boyers. I am bad mouthing large companies who have a strangle hold on the Olympics and to a degree a lot of club shooting comps namely The so called Barebow comps. I have a selection of bows I bought before I started making my own. I have a Grozer Assyrian Bio-composite, A Kassai Bear Magyar, a Kassai Mongol and a Korean KTB. I will never part with any of these. I have seen 2 bows from Border and they look good and shot very good. The point I am trying to make is Bows that have No wheels, arrow rest or pressure buttons are more traditional and require more knowledge and experience. Please read Bowyers Bible 2, chapter 1. He says something similar in a more diplomatic way.
 


English Bowman

Active member
Fair enough. I don't have a problem with rests or buttons. I don't enjoy compounds as to me they are more machines than bows, but that's just my opinion. My favourite bows are all English Longbows, but my wife has a Border Black Douglas, and I have a set of KG limbs for my ILF risers, and a Blackbrook AFB and I enjoy shooting them all.

You're right about compounds not being traditional, and to me AFBs and modern recurves aren't traditional, but I appreciate the skill and craftmanship that goes into them.
 


geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
I think traditional is an ongoing sort of idea. For a bow to be called traditional then it must have been used by a group of people for quite some time; several generations perhaps, so handed down through the family so to speak. Traditional dress is an example.
I believe bows with recurves have been around for some time in some regions of the world, and would be traditional for those people.
Recurves as used in the Olympics are not necessarily traditional and may never become traditional as they are governed by rules of the sport rather than handed down voluntarily, if that makes sense.
In some ways, I could see the compound bow becoming traditional in bow hunting countries/regions where bow styles are chosen because of their suitability for purpose.
 


Del the Cat

Well-known member
I think traditional is an ongoing sort of idea. For a bow to be called traditional then it must have been used by a group of people for quite some time; several generations perhaps, so handed down through the family so to speak. Traditional dress is an example.
I believe bows with recurves have been around for some time in some regions of the world, and would be traditional for those people.
Recurves as used in the Olympics are not necessarily traditional and may never become traditional as they are governed by rules of the sport rather than handed down voluntarily, if that makes sense.
In some ways, I could see the compound bow becoming traditional in bow hunting countries/regions where bow styles are chosen because of their suitability for purpose.
I don't think compounds have 'suitability for purpose'.
I saw a disgusting video on you tube from the US where some idiot in a hide with a compound decapitated two turkeys simultaneously using an arrow with blades that flipped out under centrifugal force to give an effective projectile size about that of a tennis ball.All from about 15yards. From his wild cackling I can only assume he thought it both clever and funny. For hunting prowess and appropriate weaponry one only need look to the Native Americans and other tribes-people.
In the same way that crossbows get a bad reputation, compounds will get the same.
Basically anything that shoots further than you can see is a bad idea, as most people don't even look never mind actually "see".
Del
 


geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Hi Del, I can see what you are saying, but isn't your view based on operator misuse?
We could have a Native American traditional bow in the same hands as that compound trying the same stunt. He would have to try a few more times before he achieved what he wanted to show, but he would delete the errors and show the final version for our "benefit". He probably did it wrong several times with the compound, too.
I believe that in US the bow hunters are more inclined to do the job for which the compound was intended; and in their hands it is far kinder than a slow moving arrow that might miss the mark more often.
The compound was originally designed for bow hunting; or so I have been led to believe. Fast; quiet; easy to aim; short and compact when stalking through trees.
Assuming that to be correct, just for now, it would seem to me that in years to come it could still be in use having had the design principles handed down over time.
Basically anything that shoots further than you can see is a bad idea, as most people don't even look never mind actually "see".
Perhaps warbows would fit into that group??
 


Del the Cat

Well-known member
Errr... A warbow won't shoot as far as a target recurve. 300 yards if you are lucky with a flight arrow.
Del
 


geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Hi Del, language is getting in the way once again.heehee.
I can imagine the archers with their warbows, possibly shooting 200yds in battle.....( guessing there) but using the bow for its intended purpose like that, I can't imaging anyone seeing where their own arrows landed.
In all seriousness, both machines were designed to kill, were they not? One is a killer generally used by a mass of archers against a mass of enemy soldiers. The other is a one to one combat machine with accuracy built in for the purpose of hitting a smallish target in a specific place. The killing has to be humane, so quicker the better.
They can shoot a long long way, but the design is for short range... and suited to purpose.
 


LongbowJake95

New member
In my opinion this is pretty simple.

Natural materials, no gadgets.

For example although the designs of AFB's and field bows may be relatively modern they are still based on historical designs. The only things I would exclude from the category of traditional bows are field bows made from modern materials (metal risers etc.).
 


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