Handicap and Allowance tables

Badarcher

New member
I am currently using rules for handicapping and the associated tables for handicaps and allowances which were issued in 'the green book' in 2010.

I have looked on the AGB website and while classification tables are available I can't find the above. Is it a copyright issue?

I can google it and find umpteen clubs publishing this information.

Where can I get an authoratative source?

Are my 2010 tables current?

Thanks for any help
 

bimble

Well-known member
Supporter
Fonz Awardee
Ironman
AIUK Saviour
I think some of the classification scores have changed since 2010 (it might have been just before, might have been just after). They can be found from page 46 onward on THIS LINK from the AGB Shooting Admin Procedures.

The handicap tables/allowances wouldn't have changed from your 2010 book, and yes, it is a copywrite issue (though I think that might have changed in recent years).
 

Badarcher

New member
Thanks Bimble. I am aware of the information on the AGB website regarding classifications. The website of our governing body to whom my club pays many hundreds of pounds was the first place I looked. I could find no information on handicaps or allowances.

Even if it explained that one of the bedrocks of our sport, and the tables I use every day belong to someone else and explained where I could find them, or if they just gave the date of the most recent issue it would be something.

Interesting that yours is the only only reply I have had and still no answer.

last week I spoke to a couple of inexperienced officials at other clubs who asked my advice. I had to scan my 8 year old copy, complete with scribbled notes, and clearly marked copyright and send it. I was embarrassed!
 

ben tarrow

Well-known member
There are some good computer programs and apps available to save the trudgery of working out handicaps by hand
I use Golden Records for my club members
 

Badarcher

New member
Thanks - thats helpful. I am aware of a number of them and I presume they have the appropriate permisssions. Perhaps I should go to one of the cheap phone apps to verify that my tables are up to date.
Having looked at golden records in the past it seems quite good. Sadly though a surprising number of people involved in my club and others are not very IT literate so my attempt to get our club to use it was unsuccesful.
 

ben tarrow

Well-known member
Thanks - thats helpful. I am aware of a number of them and I presume they have the appropriate permisssions. Perhaps I should go to one of the cheap phone apps to verify that my tables are up to date.
Having looked at golden records in the past it seems quite good. Sadly though a surprising number of people involved in my club and others are not very IT literate so my attempt to get our club to use it was unsuccesful.
Sometimes you have to take the first step, so volunteer as records officer at your next AGM, then implement golden records. Golden records also has an online version (although I dont use it myself) that looks quite good. For a small monthly fee, you can submit records from anywhere and view your records too, but maybe thats a step too far for the non IT crowd :)
 

KidCurry

Well-known member
AIUK Saviour
I asked AGB about the handicap tables and here is their response... (extract)

AGB Feb 2019 said:
When the Handicap Scheme Tables were originally created, a copyright was placed on them by the author, so Archery GB were not able to make them available electronically. However, if your club have a printed set around, I am not aware they have changed. The copyright has now expired, and Archery GB is working on making them available electronically in future, but first they are being worked through to check for glitches etc. This is a massive project and has huge implications, so is likely to take some time.

Until then, the tables are available as part of a folder on sale from Clickers Archery https://www.clickersarchery.co.uk/products/category/1361/archery-gb/ The folder contains:

*1) The Rules of Shooting
*2) The Shooting Administrators Procedures (SAPs)
3) The Target Archery Handicap Scheme Tables


*Parts 1 and 2 are available on the Archery GB website https://www.archerygb.org/about-us-structure-safeguard/about-us/the-rules-of-shooting/

I hope this helps"


Given that handicaps are instrumental to beginner engagement, I this this is quite poor. Relying on clubs to have an old copy and requiring them to copy them for beginners? From what I can remember classifications are changing all the time but handicap tables are not. This seems to be confirmed by the AGB email.
I'm not sure I agree that being available via an archery outlet is the right way either. I don't see why AGB can't photocopy them and publish them as a PDF. Oh well.
 

Rik

Supporter
Supporter
"copyright has expired"... Either D Lane died 70 years ago, or they're not talking about copyright at all.
I suspect the latter as tables of data (the data itself, rather than the layout/format) are not going to be copyright to anyone. It's just numbers, not a "work".

Like not being able to copyright a recipe or a set of instructions - you can claim copyright on the way it's written down, but not the information contained.
 

ben tarrow

Well-known member
David Lane actually published the algorithms himself some time ago and a number of people (including a bright spark at my club) have created software from that information.
 

fbirder

Member
"copyright has expired"... Either D Lane died 70 years ago, or they're not talking about copyright at all.
I suspect the latter as tables of data (the data itself, rather than the layout/format) are not going to be copyright to anyone. It's just numbers, not a "work".
That's correct. It is AGB's presentation of the data that is copyrighted. There would be nothing to stop somebody from writing the tables out by hand.

For a while the formulae used to calculate handicaps wasn't publicly available. A few years back the author published them. Ye gods! They are complicated.

I managed to decode them well enough to calculate handicaps to compare shooting at metric distances (with 10-zone scoring) and imperial distances (with 5-zone). I was trying to persuade our club to allow the 252 scheme to apply to metric and imperial rounds - no such luck.
 

bimble

Well-known member
Supporter
Fonz Awardee
Ironman
AIUK Saviour
I asked AGB about the handicap tables and here is their response... (extract)



[/I]Given that handicaps are instrumental to beginner engagement, I this this is quite poor. Relying on clubs to have an old copy and requiring them to copy them for beginners? From what I can remember classifications are changing all the time but handicap tables are not. This seems to be confirmed by the AGB email.
I'm not sure I agree that being available via an archery outlet is the right way either. I don't see why AGB can't photocopy them and publish them as a PDF. Oh well.
I'd like to think that as they come in the Rules of Shooting, that clubs WOULD have at least one copy...
 

Badarcher

New member
I'd like to think that as they come in the Rules of Shooting, that clubs WOULD have at least one copy...
Much as you may like to think that, and I like to think the moon is made of cheese, it doesn't make it true.

Tell you what. I WILL be attending the AGM of AGB and I WILL stand up and ask the question. What's the betting they are on the website before then if someone from AGB reads this thread!
 

ArcheryFox

Active member
When he decided to stop overseeing the scheme and hand it over to AGB David wrote in to ArcheryUK to say anyone interested could have a copy of his work and the papers involving the algorithms. I responded, and so if you want to ping me a message I would be happy to send you copies, and perhaps even a copy of my spreadsheet that will calculate any handicap for you. The algorithm themselves allow you to do all sorts of fun things such as calculating handicaps for the Beiter Hit and Miss round!! Also a shameless plug for my club's indoor classification scores for barebow and longbow: https://www.cubowmen.com/classifications As for David, he is still well I believe having emailed him last summer. :) Finally, having asked AGB about handicaps I believe there are plans to update the classifications to include other bowstyles and ensure that scores are still proportionally representative at some point this year.
 

Badarcher

New member
I am the records officer!

I also run an inter club league - some of the entrants to which are unfamiliar with handicaps and allowances. I have to resort to sending them links to third party sites or scans of tables which are marked copyright. I am embarassed to have to do it.
 

Badarcher

New member
I too responded and received the algorithms. I didn't however re-create the tables, I did as you have and created for my own use a spreadsheet which calculates it all.
 

Mizar

New member
The interesting thing is they didn't even upload the latest version.



OK, Let's do a crosscheck with everyone here.

For 1) The Rules of Shooting
The electronic version they uploaded on AGB website(https://www.archerygb.org/about-us-structure-safeguard/about-us/the-rules-of-shooting/) is Proc-01-05-RoS-April-2018
But the version I have in my hand (printed one) is a more updated version: Proc-01-06, October 2018
Note: next review date for RoS is Apr. 2019, so I expect to have a newer version by the time of AGM.


For 2) The Shooting Administrators Procedures (SAPs)
The electronic version they uploaded on AGB website is Proc0203 Oct2016.
I do not have a newer version in hand, but this one is due to review in October 2017, so I expect there is a newer version somewhere.


For 3) The Target Archery Handicap Scheme Tables

I asked AGB, and they told me the only clicker was selling the printed version, the version I have in my hand (club one, Printed) is G-25-02 and approved by April 2012, I also expect there is a newer version somewhere. If anyone happens to buy the binder recently(https://www.clickersarchery.co.uk/products/1204/archery-gb-rules-of-shooting-with-binder/), let us know what is the latest version is.

But I doubt many people will buy this though, 14.5 pounds for three files(2 of them you could get it online), so technically we pay 14.5 for that handicap document...
 
Top