Help with shoulder

Vass

New member
Can anyone give me a simple tip to help me stop pushing my left shoulder forward in the draw (right handed recurve archer)

My coach is constantly telling me to stop moving this shoulder, but I'm almost collapsing both arms in front me.

All arrows going wide left due to me dropping this shoulder, it also crowds my space making it difficult to get to full draw, no matter what I try, I can't stop it happening.

Help!!
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Hi Vass, I am having a bit of a problem visualising what you are doing. Also, I am wondering how the arrows get over to the left. Are you releasing before the string gets back to your face for example?

What position are your arms in when you first start to draw?
For example, is the bow arm out level and pointing to the traget before you draw.? Or, do you start the draw as you are raising the bow arm?
 

Vass

New member
I lift the bow up in line with sight and target, then start the draw, as I reach my anchor, my left shoulder drops in , I can't hold it still at all.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
So, the draw starts off OK then right at the end the bow shoulder drops.... towards the right.... or put another way, it gets too close to the line of the string? Does that sound like what happens?
 

Vass

New member
It's more like this shoulder has to get involved in the draw, I'm not pushing out with my left arm or straightening that arm , but I am pushing the shoulder forward into the string area (but not that far),

Just wish I could understand the draw characteristics and how to draw cleanly without so much movement.

By the time my anchor point comes up, I'm moving my head forward (to the right if looking at target) to meet the string.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
If I could imagine what happens it would be easier to come up with something to help. One thing that is unclear is the movement of that shoulder. If you can mime that now and watch what happens, perhaps we can make progress. I am having trouble with the idea of that shoulder "DROPPING " in. If I try to mime what I think you are doing with the shoulder, I find it lifts up and moves to the right.
 

Vass

New member
Sit on the sofa, push your left shoulder forward, that's what's happening, I can't make it sit still.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Let's see if I have got it this time. If I stand with my feet astride the shooting line with my bow arm out towards the target, and my head turned round towards the target, I am in a starting position like yours. Then, IF I push my bow arm towards the target, it will move in the same direction as yours does when you draw and shoot,yes? So, I have imagined what you do, but you can't stop it happening,is that it?
 

Vass

New member
Actually, easier explanation, the shoulder comes up towards my cheek but forward too, Not down sorry.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Ahhh, right. I think that makes everything clear now. So, I guess there are more archers who do that with their bow shoulder than there are archers who don't. It is very common. It seems like it happens all by itself,yes? If you push your shoulder forwards while standing as if to shoot, you will also find that you can pull it back again to where it started. In fact, if you push it forwards then bring it back and repeat that a few times you will start to feel where the shoulder should stay when you shoot. If you then try the same movements with your bow in your hand( strung) but don't hold the string,just the bow. You will find you can push or draw the shoulder back, at will. Next you can hold the string and do the same shoulder moves, just to get used to them.
The next stage can feel a bit odd so take this slowly. Try the same shoulder moves forwards and back while holding the bow and with a just a short draw on the string( 5cm or so.) As you get used to this, make sure both hands are at eye level and not down at chin level. Keep the drawing elbow up at eye level ,too.
The next stage is where you will start to learn how it feels , so again, take your time and don't go getting sore or bored. Just do a few and then have a break, unless you really want to continue. Following on from the earlier posture and with the bow arm pushing out and coming back, try to push and bring the shoulder back, then draw the bow part way back making sure the shoudler does stay back. You will have to work on that and you may not get it right first time, so don't think it won't ever work...it will.
What you need to have in your head, is the feeling that only the draw arm is working and the bow shoulder should feel stuck back. You have got used to pushing forwards at the shoulder, so now you have to get used to pulling it back instead. When you first start it may feel very odd. Try to imagine you are trying to get the bow shoulder down closer to you hip.( just don't lean over to get that feeling stand upright)
With a change of this sort it is a metter of getting better at the new form. The more you get sorted before you shoot for real , the better. When you do get as far as shooting the new way, shoot at close range so you don't suddenly go from doing exercses to shooting a round or long range. When you first shoot , you want to be getting the shoulder in the right place as often as possible. Shooting a rouns or long range, can take your mind off the work and it is so easy to fall back into the old ways you have got used to.
 
I'm not 100% I fully understand exactly what you are saying but it sounds similar to what I was experiencing until last week.

I would find that my left shoulder would come up and eventually my head would start to come forward as I got tired to meet the string. This resulted in my draw getting shorter and shorter.

I knew what I was doing wrong but I just couldn't work out how to get my shoulder to not pop up. However I then realised that if I concentrated on keeping my head up straight my shoulder naturally dropped down because its impossible to raise it up and everything fell into place and my consistency improved dramatically. Now I do this. I check my stance at the line, make sure my left shoulder is pointing at the target then turn my head to face it. Next I nock the arrow and just draw slightly so that there is a bit of tension in order to feel the handle along the life line of my palm. Then, and this is the important bit, I concentrate on my posture imagining as if I'm being pulled up from my head. I lift my head up, stretching my neck (because I have bad posture anyway it kinda felt like I was actually tilting my head back (to the right away from the target) but its not its just very straight). Now my shoulders are level, my head is up and I raise the bow. A little bit more pressure sets the wrist and I come to full draw. With my head almost stretched up straight my left shoulder naturally drops down and my draw length has increased by at least an inch.
 

urbin

Member
To go on a completely different tack, what poundage are you pulling and how long have you been shooting?

Does the same thing happen if you use a light training bow?
 

Vass

New member
Yes I had the same problem during my 6 week initial training last Sept.

I'm 6foot 17 stone rugby player, strength isn't the issue.
 

urbin

Member
Yes I had the same problem during my 6 week initial training last Sept.

I'm 6foot 17 stone rugby player, strength isn't the issue.
Strength in other sports doesn't always transfer over to "archery" strength.

A combination of adequate strength and good technique creates good form; the lack of any one of those may cause problems like you arte describing (although it isn't possible yet to say which it is, or both). It's usually a good idea to eliminate easily fixable problems first (like being over-bowed).

(Edited when I realised that you are the OP)
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Something to bear in mind with this sort of issue, is that it happens to lots of beginners. That makes me think that it comes easily to us to shoot that way. It is like leaning back away from the target, or nodding the head forwards towards the string.
Because those habits come so easily; without effort or thought, it takes real effort to correct them. Many of us don't realise we are doing these things, some only find out from a video of themselves.
Vass has been made aware and can therefore have a chance to put it right.
He asked for a simple way to get his shoulder right. I think the method isn't that complex or difficult; but slipping back to old ways is easy enough.
Shooting the old way happens on its own, and can take time to sort.
Shooting better requires an extra and deliberate element to be put into the shot sequence. That has first to be learnt and done well, then it has to be remembered and used all the time.
 

fanio

Active member
I also thought that you may be overbowed - this is common than you might think with men who are strong and would be appalled to be shooting a "less-than-manly" draw weight.

It might help you to make either a "pipe bow" (piece of white/black PVC piping, about the length of your bow, with a piece of string, or an "elastic bow" (a looped piece of elastic band as one might find in swimming trunks - haberdashery shop should be a good start). You want something that will have a draw weight of maybe 3-5 pounds at full draw.

Then do the things Geoff suggests with that until you can do it properly with your fake bow - I would be very surprised if you found your shoulder popping up like that with a 5 lb bow - before moving on to your bow and trying the same movements with that.
 

GoneBad

Member
It is possible you are drawing the bow incorrectly. Have a read of this KSL International Archery ,study the set-up photos. The bow should start slightly elevated and the draw movement is back and down towards the throat, then move up to anchor. This keeps a downward force on the bow shoulder. Another good one, watch youtube - performance archery 'episode 2 the front end' and 'episode 7 the draw'
 
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