[Horsebow] Horsebow speed comparison to recurve

blakey

Active member
G'day, I've been kicking around the idea for a while of trying a 'real' horsebow. I have a 50 lb Samick SKB, and while it is a beautifully smooth-drawing bow, I am finding the weight a bit too much to shoot a full FITA with. I've been researching some speed results on the net, and have seen some astounding speeds posted by heavy-weight Turkish flight bows, up round compound levels. I'm definitely on the down slope weight wise, and would like to access something in the region of 30 lbs. I've been wondering about the inverted 'C' Turkish horsebows, and whether they might be significantly faster than a target recurve? But I can't find any info on speeds for low poundages. Does anyone know if my supposition is correct, that a Turkish horsebow (or any other variety) would be faster than a recurve of a similar poundage? Cheers
 


tinkerer

New member
Over on pp, not so long ago an amateur turkish bow, ie with sinew and horn built up on a wooden core, was compared with an American self flat bow; and was no faster! A respectable speed of 165fps or so was achieved, but that would be easily exceeded by a recurve. These bows were around the 50lb mark at 28ins and were both made by experienced craftsmen.

I wouldn't say that this was the last word and would like to hear of other evidence.

David
 


Dorset Lass

New member
Ironman
Hi Blakey, I shoot 'real' horsebows and like you was of the opinion that they were faster because of their design. I think I must have been reading the same research about heavy weight asiatic recurves being of comparable speeds to compound bows! Alas I was proved wrong when messing about with a speed tester recently at the club. My 35lb scythian came out at around 137 fps if I remember correctly, and a fellow archer's 50lb laminated longbow came out at around 150 fps. I gather that adding 100 to the poundage is a fairly good estimate for fps on traditional bows. So if you can shoot a 100lb horsebow you maybe can expect a speed in the order of 200 fps.
 


tinkerer

New member
Hi Dorset Lass. The reason for your bows speed might be that you're using heavy arrows. If you are pulling 35lbs at 28ins then the arrow mass used in a speed test should be 35x10grains. If it's 35lbs at 25ins then reduce the arrow mass by 25/28.

All bows of the same efficiency regardless of their poundage should give the same speed given the above rule.

Very great speeds can be achieved with very short and light arrows shot from heavy bows with long drawlengths.

David
 


blakey

Active member
Hi Dorset Lass. The reason for your bows speed might be that you're using heavy arrows. If you are pulling 35lbs at 28ins then the arrow mass used in a speed test should be 35x10grains. If it's 35lbs at 25ins then reduce the arrow mass by 25/28.

All bows of the same efficiency regardless of their poundage should give the same speed given the above rule.

Very great speeds can be achieved with very short and light arrows shot from heavy bows with long drawlengths.

David
Hi David and Dorset Lass, that's some interesting observations. It would be nice to know the weight of the arrows shot out of the laminated longbow that chronoed 150 fps. I have a feeling though they would be a similar weight (or even heavier) to those shot out of the Scythian, c.430 gns from a previous post? The tests I was looking at were carried out by Adam Karpowicz (probably spelled that wrong). I don't know how to post a link unfortunately. I went back and checked the arrow weight Tink, and the fastest posted was from a 125 lb Flight Bow, at an amazing 357 fps, with a very light 203 gn arrow, at 27 7/8" draw length. Definitely going into the danger zone and beyond. He does point out that the arrows he used are not spined for the bows, and could be slowed or otherwise by hitting the riser. Don't know how you match an arrow that light to a 125 lb spine tho? He also says he didn't use fastflight string, which he says would give a 6% increase in efficiency. He was trying to replicate the silk strings of the medieval flight bows. These are the Turkish 'C' section (inverted) design. The same bow shot a 1548 gn arrow at 171 fps. Horrible thought isn't it? All totally beyond my capability of course. He was using a machine (and probably hiding behind armoured glass) Cheers
 


tinkerer

New member
Hi Blakey, Those figures put a different slant on it. Very fast! I imagine he was using short arrows and an overdraw to help the spine as much as possible. And traditional materials throughout.

Are the majority of horsebows in use today fibreglass around a wooden core? And bio-composites?

David
 


Tihumachina

New member
Arrow speed are not necessarily grows with bow weight. A lot depends on the design of the bow.
Heres a vid from a bowyer pretty well known in Hungary.
Meine Alben
Two shots with each bow, first with woodies and then with alu arrow.
There is life beyond kaya and grozer.
And this bow Is an interesting one: http://szimeiszter.magix.net/#/meine-alben/!/oa/6069720/ he (szimeiszter istvan ?jk?sz?t ) uses karbon on wood laminate instead of glass fibre. 221 fps Lovely if you are a speed freak. :)
 


blakey

Active member
Arrow speed are not necessarily grows with bow weight. A lot depends on the design of the bow.
Heres a vid from a bowyer pretty well known in Hungary.
Meine Alben
Two shots with each bow, first with woodies and then with alu arrow.
There is life beyond kaya and grozer.
And this bow Is an interesting one: Meine Alben he (szimeiszter istvan ?jk?sz?t ) uses karbon on wood laminate instead of glass fibre. 221 fps Lovely if you are a speed freak. :)
Thanks for that, that's really interesting (and fast). Do you know this bloke's trading name, whether he has a website and sells abroad?
Ignore all that. I've just realised that you posted his website. Techno dummy me! Cheers
 


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blakey

Active member
Hi Blakey, Those figures put a different slant on it. Very fast! I imagine he was using short arrows and an overdraw to help the spine as much as possible. And traditional materials throughout.

Are the majority of horsebows in use today fibreglass around a wooden core? And bio-composites?

David
Hi David, trying to work out how to post a link? http://www.atarn.org/islamic/Performance/Performance_of_Turkish_bows.htm or Turkish bow tests That's a later more comprehensive article than the first one I looked at. He is as you say using an overdraw device, and the bows are made of natural materials, i.e wood, sinew, horn. One thing that stood out for me is the relative thinness of the siyahs. Having played around a while now on increasing speed of trad bows by minimising the width and weight of the limb tips, I've often wondered how the majority of the current crop of simulated horsebows out of Hungary manage much speed with the chunky siyahs they mostly seem to carry (SKBs excepted, but then I'd class them as a recurve really)? Cheers
P.S Finally managed to post link correctly. And in reading it again, I seem to have answered my own question: "This places the Turkish bows at the level of performance equal to the best bows made of modern materials." So that I presume means that modern bows are as fast? But does that mean that modern recurves are as fast? That carbon Hungarian on Meine Alben was doing 225 fps?
 


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blakey

Active member
Just found this: "Carbon Tech has these arrows called the McKinney II, these are arrows built for speed. Very light shafts, you can put 80 grain points on them and still get good balance, whereas other target arrows aren't happy with any points lighter than 100 grains. I've seen McKinney II's go out of a 50lbs recurve at 260 fps." Asker

Don't know if that is correct? If so it kills off the horsebow challenge? Cheers
 


backinblack

New member
Just found this: "Carbon Tech has these arrows called the McKinney II, these are arrows built for speed. Very light shafts, you can put 80 grain points on them and still get good balance, whereas other target arrows aren't happy with any points lighter than 100 grains. I've seen McKinney II's go out of a 50lbs recurve at 260 fps." Asker

Don't know if that is correct? If so it kills off the horsebow challenge? Cheers
It's probably an exaggeration - messing around with Archer's Advantage shows appropriately spined McKinney IIs coming out of a 50lb recurve bow at 229 feet per second. Not too shabby but finding another 30 fps is going some...
 


blakey

Active member
It's probably an exaggeration - messing around with Archer's Advantage shows appropriately spined McKinney IIs coming out of a 50lb recurve bow at 229 feet per second. Not too shabby but finding another 30 fps is going some...
I just found another claim:

"we've gotten similar speeds from the Black Swan Hybrid, with:
* T/D limbs
* On FITA riser (complete with elevated rest, plunger, etc.)
* Shooting FITA reg'd 6.5 gr./lb. from a 38# bow
* Shot at 30 inches AMO
* Shot from shooting machine w/ release mechanism
* Actual average speed... 253fps" Black Swan.

I didn't realise how fast modern recurves are claimed to be. It would be interesting to know what Border Bows say. They would be up with the best of them? Cheers
 


SHADOW-MKII

New member
Blakey, Ryan Tyack's W&W Inno CXT with INNO EX Power limbs at 54# are getting around 220 fps with X10's close to 400 grains, A lighter arrow would be faster. I don't think the traditional materials can really be expected to compete with their modern counterparts.

But the Asiatic bows are much better looking and just as fun to shoot.
 


barney

New member
Blakey, Ryan Tyack's W&W Inno CXT with INNO EX Power limbs at 54# are getting around 220 fps with X10's close to 400 grains, A lighter arrow would be faster. I don't think the traditional materials can really be expected to compete with their modern counterparts.

But the Asiatic bows are much better looking and just as fun to shoot.
My understanding is that very fast bows tend to be very short and of high poungage (shooting very light arrows). For eg, Adam Karpowitcz's 357 fps from a Horn/ sinew Turkish flight bow. I havn't seen any modern materials that can truly emulate horn and sinew in this respect - they're too brittle and can't handle the high string frequency (dry fire speed).
 


tinkerer

New member
shadow-mk11 If those were 540grain arrows I'd expect the speed to be a little over 200fps (?) Mark K's bow shooting at 10gpp might be a bit under, so not much difference. Where modern materials always score is consistency over a period. David
 


Naedre

New member
i used to shoot a 70# turkish C shaped bow, made by Grozer of hungary, and it was extremely fast. The reason i got rid of it had nothing to do with shooting it, and everything to do with its shape. The contortions needed to string a C shaped bow make it a painful and potentially injurious affair. the lower limb rests against the shin while you have to twist your body right round to brace it over your leg. Its not a pretty sight, as the lower limb really digs into your shin.
has anyone else had the same problem, and do you still shoot it?

Jim
 


Dr.Bob

New member
The contortions needed to string a C shaped bow make it a painful and potentially injurious affair. the lower limb rests against the shin while you have to twist your body right round to brace it over your leg. Its not a pretty sight, as the lower limb really digs into your shin.
has anyone else had the same problem, and do you still shoot it?

Jim
You might find this video useful Jim :)

YouTube - Chinese traditional archery amenities
 


Naedre

New member
.............or you could try it that way.............

seriously though, i did try that method, and first go i nearly pulled my kneecap off. So i tried lower down my leg, and the pain you get is pretty intense. obviously i'm just a western wimp compared to proper archers.
also, getting a friend to "help" is no different pain-wise. no wonder they used to leave their bows strung for such long periods. my honest advice............ buy a reflex D flex shaped Trad. bow. you still the benefits of cast and speed, but without the drawbacks .

jim
 


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