Indoor classification - why are ladies and gents scores different?

Johnh159

Member
I'm sure this must have been covered before, but I was wondering why the indoor classification scores were different for gents and ladies.

eg.
"C" Class
Portsmouth Gents 554 Ladies 534
WA18 Gents 516 Ladies 479
etc....

The discipline is the same.
Bow weight makes no difference when shooting 18m/20 yds.

Does anyone know how/why this came about.

Thanks
 

Timid Toad

Moderator
Staff member
Supporter
Fonz Awardee
Ironman
Classification scores are not arbitrarily fixed. They are based on percentages of scores reaching a particular level. For example A class is based on the top 5% of submitted scores. If this means that Lady and Gent levels are set differently it is because the level of achievement differs. They are periodically reviewed and adjusted if necessary.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
I don't "know" the answer but my guess is that the classifications over all are probably based on scores reached by archers( men and women separated)If men's scores for a round are generally higher, then each classification will require higher scores for men than women.
I can see that women are not really disadvantaged by the distance and bow weight for 20y, but perhaps women score lower for other reasons.
I am not going to make guesses about what those reasons might be but it could be because..............................
 

Mistake

New member
Ironman
I don't "know" the answer but my guess is that the classifications over all are probably based on scores reached by archers( men and women separated)If men's scores for a round are generally higher, then each classification will require higher scores for men than women.
I can see that women are not really disadvantaged by the distance and bow weight for 20y, but perhaps women score lower for other reasons.
I am not going to make guesses about what those reasons might be but it could be because..............................
Upper body strength will be one of the big ones, it matters even at such short distances.

A lot of the rest is likely tied into evolutionary psychology were men tend to be more competitive in basically everything because being at the top of something athletics wise, work wise or even intellectually increases our standing both with other men and with women. Dr Warren Farrell aptly sums this up as "if women are sex objects then men are success objects."

Sent from my BLN-L21 using Tapatalk
 

bimble

Well-known member
Supporter
Fonz Awardee
Ironman
AIUK Saviour
The discipline is the same.
Bow weight makes no difference when shooting 18m/20 yds.
If you want, got have a look at the qualification scores from last years Nimes event (one of the largest WA events), and even though they are amongst the best in the world, the top female recurve would have come fourth in a combined line, and in the compounds the top female would only have been joint 21st!

This isn't to say that gents will always score more, but on average they can take advantage of longer draw lengths, higher bow poundages, and heavier set ups.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Upper body strength will be one of the big ones, it matters even at such short distances.

A lot of the rest is likely tied into evolutionary psychology were men tend to be more competitive in basically everything because being at the top of something athletics wise, work wise or even intellectually increases our standing both with other men and with women. Dr Warren Farrell aptly sums this up as "if women are sex objects then men are success objects."
Hi Spaghetti Badger, I like your post.
I didn't want to get drawn into making comments about what the differences might be, but if I had, it might be along the lines that females tend to listen to their coaches better. However, that could be way too contentious so I kept quiet.
 

Raven's_Eye

Active member
Ironman
Indoor classifications are a bit of a sham anyway, not recognising either barebow or longbow as a discipline (both count under recurve). They also don't take juniors into account either, so depending on age this might bring bow weight into the factor.
 

Timid Toad

Moderator
Staff member
Supporter
Fonz Awardee
Ironman
Indoor classifications are a bit of a sham anyway, not recognising either barebow or longbow as a discipline (both count under recurve). They also don't take juniors into account either, so depending on age this might bring bow weight into the factor.
Yes, that would definitely skew the results a little, with juniors' probably lower scores affecting the percentages. Other factors could be that more women drop out of the sport at an earlier stage (so their comparably lower scores are a good portion of the stats ), never reaching their potential, partly perhaps because of the dinosaur misogynistic attitude that still exists in some areas of the sport. When that changes the women will be free to have the belief that they are at least the equal of men in archery (little dig there for my stalker :rotfl:).
 

Mistake

New member
Ironman
Hi Spaghetti Badger, I like your post.
I didn't want to get drawn into making comments about what the differences might be, but if I had, it might be along the lines that females tend to listen to their coaches better. However, that could be way too contentious so I kept quiet.
Oh for sure, a lot of men (and I've been guilty of this) tend to let ego get in the way of moving forward, which is one of the downsides to men being much more competitive than women (and this isn't just from evo psych, higher testosterone levels make people less risk averse and this has been shown in both men and women) when taken as a group

never reaching their potential, partly perhaps because of the dinosaur misogynistic attitude that still exists in some areas of the sport.
I agree.

Women only rounds should be abolished (so Hereford and the WA 1440 Ladies) and women should be made to shoot 100 yards/ 90m like the men are - Field archery is actually far more egalitarian and non-sexist in this particular regard. They're clearly just as capable as men, it's just that they don't because social pressure.. or something

When that changes the women will be free to have the belief that they are at least the equal of men in archery
Are we talking actual misogyny as in "the hatred and distrust of all women" or the watered down "this one guy said something a little mean about this one women, once, after she'd keyed his car, after a few too many drinks in the pub" that seems to pass as "the hatred and distrust of all women" in today's society. This might seem like an over the top example but I've been called a misogynist because I dared to campaign on behalf of male domestic abuse victims and because I'm against mutilating the genitals of little boys as well as little girls.

Also, see my previous point about how they should be made to shoot 100 yards/ 90m like the men. Because then they would be equal to the men shooting.

(little dig there for my stalker :rotfl:).
Seeing as you've previously condoned doxing on this forum, and quite recently to, complaining about stalkers is exactly like a pot calling the kettle black
 

ben tarrow

Well-known member
Surely it should be abhorrent to treat women any differently from/to men in any way whatsoever, or indeed, any human being any differently from/to any other human being.
A single playing field (excuse the pun) where we are all archers, people, humans.
Since people can now seemingly change their gender, almost at will, allowing for some chemicals, surgery and ignoring a few chromosomes.
 

ben tarrow

Well-known member
Surely it should be abhorrent to treat women any differently from/to men in any way whatsoever, or indeed, any human being any differently from/to any other human being.
A single playing field (excuse the pun) where we are all archers, people, humans.
Since people can now seemingly change their gender, almost at will, allowing for some chemicals, surgery and ignoring a few chromosomes.
 

bimble

Well-known member
Supporter
Fonz Awardee
Ironman
AIUK Saviour
Surely it should be abhorrent to treat women any differently from/to men in any way whatsoever, or indeed, any human being any differently from/to any other human being.
A single playing field (excuse the pun) where we are all archers, people, humans.
And yet society does... when the army spokesman was able to get a dig in on the Today Programme by pointing out that in the army pay is gender equal, unlike other institutions that still pay women less than their male colleagues, for no more apparent reason than being women...

I'll also point out that there is nothing stopping women from shooting the York/90m 1440 (and they do), if they wish. There are full national records (recurve/compound/longbow/barebow) for ladies (and junior) for both the 90m 1440 and the York round. Naomi's record is 1276 (2523 for the double) if anyone is interested.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
In my first post I guessed that the classifications were based on results gathered over time from round shot by women and men, separated out.
It could be said that if men and women are to be treated equally, then the classification requirements should be the same for all genders.
But, take this one stage further and we could end up with standards required for inclusion at International events that apply to all. Take that to other sports and the requirement for something like 100m sprint, and we might end up with a few men reaching the standard and no women anywhere in the world.
If that is to be avoided how will the lines be drawn? On what grounds are women's 100m standards allowed to be lower than men's? Apply that to archery; or not?
I see no reason to prevent women from competing in archery against men. I see no reason to prevent women from racing against men. I don't think I would support a men v women rugby match; or boxing.
 

Johnh159

Member
I only asked what I thought was a straight forward question to which TT answered and it seems to have opened a debate about equality etc.
I asked the question as I did not see any reason why Gents and Ladies should have quite large differences* for indoor classification scores.
It should then follow, why have separate Gents and Ladies categories for indoor tournaments.

*The difference is 37 points on a WA18 for a "C" class.

Bow weight has been mentioned in the thread. This hasn't convinced me. Many archers will drop weight when going indoors if they are chasing scores. Shooting 18m, without any wind or other elements, would it really make a difference if someone is holding 26# or 52#?

I understand why there will be a difference outdoors, bow weight etc can make a difference shooting longer distances, particularly in the wind.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Your question was straightforward enough, but the responses came from archers who are interested beyond the simple explanations.
I think you are right to wonder why indoor classifications are so different. The simple answer could be that the women who take part, and the men who take part, end up with scores that require different numbers. But it does make us wonder why that should be the case when there seems to be nothing to disadvantage the women when lighter draw weights are good enough. Equality, seems like a natural response; as does, are the two genders equally capable at short range, indoors?
 
Top