[OTHER] Instinctive convert

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Simon Banks

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It's a very common coin of phrase in the NFAS/Field archery circles I've been exposed to but I guess GNAS is mostly sighted archers so maybe it's just not a concept they need very often. Certainly when Magna Carta runs comps there is zero confusion over its usage.
Many crossbowers and compounders pick up traditional bows and come along to join in the fun.


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Elestial

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Since instinctive shooting is not taught in GNAS clubs , I would be very interested to know how the archers here managed to learn it?
Any tips? Any books? any videos?
This would help a lot of people...
I will post a compilation of your answers on the Facebook page dedicated to promoting the instinctive style
https://www.facebook.com/instinctivearchery

:)
 

Simon Banks

Active member
It's very easy to learn.. You still need to practice consistency of technique.. I recommend you start at 5 yards, just focus intensively on the smallest feature on the target. Animal faces are best.. If it's a round face pick an existing arrow hole. Then with all your attention on that spot shoot it... Never let your eyes move off that spot really drill down on it, Then repeat until your your consistent and slowly increase the range. Distance estimation takes a while to kick in and needs lots of practice to learn. Same goes with elevation etc.
Book wise I recommend 'Instinctive Insights' and search for 'instinctive aiming wolfie' on YouTube he's good at explaining..



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Simon Banks

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I learned it with a beginner recurve (barebow) and wooden arrows shooting round targets .. I was getting decent groupings after a 3-4 weeks after 3 months I was shooting up to 60yards. At which point I got my English longbow and started again, soon after I discovered NFAS joined and never went back to target archery ;-)


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Breva750

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I'm really only just a learner again after 25 years off....but when I was a kid I was a FINE instinctive rock thrower and cricketer. Practice all the time was the key. We would pick a target in the bush, and then throw a rock at it. After a few thousand times doing this you get pretty good! Helps getting a run out too!.
 

Simon Banks

Active member
Learning isn't the problem but like anything with archery it takes forever to master.. I just love the simplicity of shooting using it. Just stand at the peg pick your target spot and shoot. No faffing around with abstract numbers or offsets, gaps etc...
Perfect for glorious day shooting in the woods. But remember archery is mental ;-)


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Simon Banks

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My home club is between Virginia water and Chertsey if anyone wants a to come try it out BTW


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geoffretired

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Since the majority of GNAS target archers use sights I would imagine it's not a concept they need to use very often.
However NFAS has a majority of 'Instinctive archers' it's a very commonly used term. I've never had any confusion with the term.
Hi Simon, I would have replied sooner but I couldn't get in to AIUK later last night.
I think the things you mention are part of the problem. Groups of archers who shoot together, talk together and in a way they use a common language that develops for them over time. Talk to others who are not so closely associated and things break down until explained.
One of the guys at the club was struggling with his longbow and I went to have a chat.
He said he was ok at 30y but at 40y the arrows were all over the place.
He went on to say that he was trying to shoot instinctive. My ears pricked up immediately as you can imagine.
I asked him what he was doing; and why 30y was ok and 40y was rubbish.( his words)
He said that he wasn't aiming he just had this on the gold and drew and "fired".
THIS turned out to be the arrow point.
At 40y he had to do the same but then tilt back till the arrow point was above the target. Sometimes he was just raising his bow arm and not tilting.... but he remembered having trouble with that, on and off for some months.
I would say that he was aiming deliberately. To my way of thinking he was not shooting instinctively, but perhaps after some years, it might end up that way.
 

frustratatosk

New member
= archer aims without any references.
I would argue that's an impossible contradiction
= archer aims without conscious reference [to anything other than the target]
That fits and is useful because it doesn't exclude peripheral awareness of gaps at longer distances.
Geoff's longbow man wasn't aiming instinctively but I think, personally, that it is possible to know that the point is on the gold but then defer the final aim to 'instinct'. (Which as has been said, involves conscious attention shrinking down to smallest point on the target possible)
 

geoffretired

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If I look at archers from all styles of shooting, they all have the basics in place. That's obvious, but I mention that to highlight the details, that I feel separate the styles.
Ignore the attachments such as sights, rubber bands and ground markers, and watch the archers shooting in their chosen style.
Some of the slowest are the compounders; they can afford to be as the holding weight is so low, and expectations are high.
Recurvers, tend to be faster than compounders, for obvious reasons.
Longbow archers tend to be pretty fast, and shoot with very little delay from start to finish.
The time difference, is mainly dependent on how long the archer spends on the aim; the drawing is pretty similar time wise for all.
The archers, that I would describe as shooting instinctively, have no point in their shot sequence where they are still enough to be deliberately aiming. Their bow arm in particular seems to be on the move all through the draw and carries into the follow through without interruption. They are nearer to a throwing action than any of the rest.
If I think of shooting a catapult; some hold the weapon arm still and move only the draw hand and steady then shoot. Others move both arms away from each other and the shot is made before either arm is steady. The latter reminds me of instinctive archery.
 

frustratatosk

New member
Mmm, I don't think the speed of the shot defines the style although it does tend to be quicker. Simon referred to Arjuna (from Hindu myth) earlier. I bet Arjuna could meditate on the eye of the bird all day! :)
 

geoffretired

Supporter
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Heehee, but what would be happening during that meditation?
Perhaps the intention to aim, is what excludes the rest and only those who have no "Steadying/correcting" phase are the instinctives.
 

frustratatosk

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'Master, I have contemplated the oneness of Brahma, now tell me - why does my arm pain me so much?'

[Edit] That was just a joke by the way with no ref to anything in particular (not a very good one at that :)
 

Simon Banks

Active member
Hi Geoff, Sorry about the delay but the server seemed to be down whenever I tried to post.
I shot at South Wilts on Sunday.. As challenging a course as I shot at the NFAS nationals.. I achieved a very respectable score but my distance estimation was off too often so wasn't in the top 3 :-(. Some great and even some stunning shots.. But a well laid course all the same. Ranges from 1 to 80 yards.. You'll be amused to know that the top two stunning scores were both from senior citizens.. Experience is everything it appears with NFAS English longbow. :)
I shot for the first time in NFAS with a freestyle recurve bowman and over the six hours we spent shooting we compared notes. I was interested in how he estimated ranges into abstract numbers and he was equally fascinated by how I just stick my arm out and shot.
There is no comparison.. My entire focus is on the target... I don't think ranges, offsets and I'm not aware of anything but the target and making the shot. I've shot gap, pick a point and POA and it's very different.. Also I can shoot any bow and arrow combination and within as little as 3 arrows be on target without consciously adjusting so I can't see what offset I could by unconsciously using.

My best shot.. About 30 yards.. I knew where to shoot and my first arrow went there... Very happy. Please note that the other four arrows are carbons... ;-) always nice outshooting a ?20-30 arrows with a ?1.80 woodie...



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geoffretired

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Nice shooting.
It seems to me that the more of this shooting you do, the better you get at it and the less you have to think about.
My guess is that the brain has been through the process so often it "knows" what to do before you even draw the bow.
Think of the struggle to learn to fasten shoe laces and how we can do it without looking once we get used to it.
Trying to fasten laces from the start without looking, would slow down that learning process.
 

blakey

Active member
I like the idea of shooting a tortoise. It's hardly a moving target. You wouldn't have to lead by very much. But down here they're protected. What does the RSPCA say? :)
 

Simon Banks

Active member
Thanks Geoff and yes I think your right challenges like thus are perfect and I'm aware that it will take years to perfect.
I'm finding archery increasingly mental rather than technical. I am vaguely aware that the course destroyed a lot of archers on Sunday which is easily done unless you can keep up the positive mental attitude. Simplicity, humility and calm and the rest will follow...



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