On line coaching?

geoffretired

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With the current situation likely to continue for some time; I have been thinking of on line coaching as an alternative.
It can be seen as a poor substitute for face to face coaching, but I think differently.
One of the things I have observed over the years has been the way newer archers pick up ideas from more experienced archers. Nothing wrong with that; but often the timing is such that the new idea is presented at a time when the newer archer is shooting a round. Often the "help" is a quick observation, such as, "You dropped your bow arm." Sometimes, there is further help given regarding what to do instead , " You need to keep your bow arm out until the arrow lands in the target."
I suppose it could be said that the advice arrived as a sort of interruption to the archer's shooting.
On line coaching is very different, in the sense that the archer isn't shooting at the time, so any advice can be discussed further.
This allows a two way communication that is often missing when " coaching " happens , unplanned, as the experienced archer was passing by.
What I find with on line coaching is that the archer is in a different mind set when they are away from the shooting line. There is no " pull" to get back to shooting. There is time to get their head round any changes that are required.
There is something else that on line coaching does. It gets the archer into a situation where they have set aside time in order to address an issue.
Setting aside some time in order to learn more, is an important step for an archer to make. It puts the archer into a very different mind set from the one that says they will get better if they just shoot more arrows.
 

KidCurry

Well-known member
Given the situation it is an alternative. However it is much more difficult than face to face. I'm not an archery coach, but I am a lecturer of Landscape Architecture. Moving all teaching online last year was very difficult, but the hardest part is how you ensure the student has understood the information being passed. This is hard enough during normal teaching. The feedback online is not the same as feedback that is face to face and there is a very real risk that the student gets frustrated, especially if there is already an issue, and the students progress and confidence is easily damaged.
 

geoffretired

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Supporter
Perhaps the information that is being passed across to newer archers will be less demanding than to higher level archers.
I am thinking along the lines of clearing up misconceptions.
If the coach can change the archer's thinking about an element of the shot, there is a better chance the action will be done properly.
A little example from ice skating. I think it was Robin Cousins talking about skaters doing spins with their arms out to the sides.
He explained to the same group in two ways. First he said, " When you spin keep your arms out and don't let them drop , until the spins have stopped. I will time you to see how long you can keep your warms out."
He timed them and told them the results. Nearer the end of the session he did the same test but asked the skaters to do their spins while pointing their arms out to the side.
Despite being more tired towards the end of their session, they all managed for longer when they were asked to point rather than don't drop.
I think archery could be full of situations like this where a different set of words can bring better results.
"Pull till the clicker clicks"....... is a recipe for the archer to start waiting for the clicker and forgetting to draw the bow.
 

Whitehart

Well-known member
I think that distance learning is better for intermediate archers and above who have been shooting for a while than those that have just started out. Like KC says it's all about feed back and understanding for example without a foremaster or similar training aid it would be impossible to teach back tension online. so IMO it's best to do real time over a video link.

The best thing beginners can do is keep generally fit and watch lots of the Korean Ladies shooting great arrows and seeing them hit the 10 on a daily basis slowly getting their brain used to understanding what they are supposed to be doing and then being able to question whether they are doing something similar.

When I observe quite a few coaches they are far too quick to give you the contents of their experience and or jump to conclusions, I spent 6 dozen arrows watching an archer before we sat down had a discussion and made a coaching plan most coaches, start changing things after 6 arrows.

The problem is that distance coaching can easily become firefighting addressing what the archer thinks are the problem, rather than coaching which to be honest is all that most archers want even when at a club, a quick fix with little effort so they can get on with shooting and scoring, seeing a quick improvement but soon slipping back to old ways.

I was at a National shoot, things were not going great during the 1st end of scoring, then a voice rang out "you are dropping your bow arm" hardly etiquette in the eyes om some, but it did the trick next arrow 10 and next end x x x x 10 8 (bow arm again) it was not coaching but a reminder of what I thought I was doing was not what I was doing. After the shoot it was clear that I had a bow arm issue, it turned out not to be just forgetting, but not having a strong enough bow arm which was addressed with specific exercises not as some suggested was simply a shot execution issue.
 

KidCurry

Well-known member
It can be misleading to I think if you are coaching an experienced archer and the archer coach relationship is well established, there is less risk but risk there is and lots of it. If the relationship is new or with archers of limited experience the risks are far greater. With unplanned and unstructured teaching there is a risk that the teaching becomes a dialogue of one part reacting to the comments of the other and that's it.

I'm not sure what 'video link' means unless you mean something like Zoom?Then there are the issues of vulnerable students, student protection and teacher protection. I suspect some of this is covered by coaching courses but my suspicion is it does not cover online. Online is the most risky for both parties. Most of my ongoing teacher training covers these areas. For example, what protections do you have to prevent your zoom meeting being hijacked or piggybacked and exposing your students to risk? It's worth checking these things.
Another question I would ask is... Does the AGB insurance cover you for online coaching?
The best thing beginners can do is keep generally fit and watch lots of the Korean Ladies shooting great arrows and seeing them hit the 10 on a daily basis slowly getting their brain used to understanding what they are supposed to be doing and then being able to question whether they are doing something similar.
I agree with this 100%. Little risk, and a lot to gain.
 

geoffretired

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Supporter
I think it is dangerous to follow the form of the best unless there is also some understanding of what they are seeing.
For example, if they watch a clicker shooter and try to copy without realising the implications, they are likely to misinterpret what is required.
The best make it look as if they are stationary at full draw. The arrow point is drawn to within 1mm of clicking with apparent ease.
 

KidCurry

Well-known member
I think it is dangerous to follow the form of the best unless there is also some understanding of what they are seeing.
I think you are right. I would not advocate copying them. Watch them and study their form. When starting shooting again compare, with the aid of a coach, how they differ from your form.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying you should not coach online. I'm saying it is not an easy thing to do with many pitfalls. I'm lucky, when I teach I have a university behind me :)
 

geoffretired

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Supporter
We use something called Jitsi( I think) to do committee work occasionally. I was thinking of doing work with some club members( all adults) using something like that. The members I would want to aim at would be the ones who did their beginners course recently and did not get to join the regular coaching group before lockdown started. Some have shot at the club under the covid restrictions but I stayed away.
 

KidCurry

Well-known member
...I was thinking of doing work with some club members( all adults) ...
Be careful, adults can be vulnerable students too. Rather oddly, it would be safer, for me, to give archery advice than you as I am not qualified to do so. You being a qualified coach places you in a position of trust and have a higher degree of responsibility.
 
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Whitehart

Well-known member
I think it is dangerous to follow the form of the best unless there is also some understanding of what they are seeing.
For example, if they watch a clicker shooter and try to copy without realising the implications, they are likely to misinterpret what is required.
The best make it look as if they are stationary at full draw. The arrow point is drawn to within 1mm of clicking with apparent ease.
It is a bit more simple than that - just watching and allowing the subconscious to get the idea of shooting - it also helps with visualising and feeling their own current basic shot sequence, when they shoot, learning to pull the string back and letting go.
I think online coaching can work if the coach already helps the archer, so helping out club members is a good thing to help with improvement and motivation.
 

geoffretired

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Supporter
Thanks , both , for your inputs.
Perhaps I have messed up the title and made the idea sound high powered.
Let me put this in context. When I started shooting there was no internet or even mobile phones. When I wanted answers to questions I had to ring the guys who had taught me to shoot in the first place.
They were happy to answer my questions.
The current situation means that the questions the beginners ( now members) would be wanting to ask, are not being voiced even.
I was thinking of starting something a bit more organised than random phonecalls from guys who might all have similar questions /issues.
Sometimes the " coaching" I speak about is as simple as putting something in context or putting another point of view before them to consider.
 

Big George

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Online coaching can work, my son uses a personal trainer for fitness and they’ve adapted training to not need to meet. All sessions are via real-time video. It works for him but he had been working with his coach well before the lockdown. He also had to run around to get suitable weights to train with.
I think online coaching could work (I think I saw one of the GB team archers offing sessions) but you’d need to plan it well and it thbink about wha t kit and space you’d need at the archers place.
 
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geoffretired

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Supporter
Hi Big George.
I think your son is working with a coach he knows... and that would be the situation I am wanting to start with the club members.
I think I gave the impression that it would be coaching for anyone.
 

Big George

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Supporter
Yes, he’d been working with him in the gym, transferred to video calls during the lockdown. Getting the kit was the hard bit for him as there was a sudden run on dumb bells in the local stores. The other issue is space to train. He used the back garden to start with, now moved to garage in the cold weather (getting the garage clear enough for him was a byproduct of me sorting out enough space for my shooting practice.
A space and the kit needed for training is something you will need to think about if you haven’t already. Harder for archery than fitness training especially if you intend they shoot.

Taking on someone new would work but I suspect it would be harder building up the rapport to be most effective.
 

geoffretired

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BigGeorge, Thanks for your posts.
One of the things I have enjoyed for the last 39 years, is beginners' courses; where new archers become new friends.
A big part of coaching, for me, is the people with their varying personalities and qualities. No two are alike; which makes things so much better.
Every difficult explanation takes the archer and me/us another step further into the fascination of archery.
 

tabashir

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Supporter
It can be misleading to I think if you are coaching an experienced archer and the archer coach relationship is well established, there is less risk but risk there is and lots of it. If the relationship is new or with archers of limited experience the risks are far greater. With unplanned and unstructured teaching there is a risk that the teaching becomes a dialogue of one part reacting to the comments of the other and that's it.

I'm not sure what 'video link' means unless you mean something like Zoom?Then there are the issues of vulnerable students, student protection and teacher protection. I suspect some of this is covered by coaching courses but my suspicion is it does not cover online. Online is the most risky for both parties. Most of my ongoing teacher training covers these areas. For example, what protections do you have to prevent your zoom meeting being hijacked or piggybacked and exposing your students to risk? It's worth checking these things.
Another question I would ask is... Does the AGB insurance cover you for online coaching?
Assuming that there is some structure to the coaching, so it is more of a lecture with questions compared to a traditional coaching session of watching the student, what risks are you thinking of KC?

Safeguarding provisions would need to be ticked off but that is the same regardless of whether it is in person or video.

The whole "zoom bombing" thing was a bit of a storm drummed up by the media looking for headlines. Yes it was possible for somebody to join a meeting that they were not invited to by randomly trying meeting IDs. It definitely did happen, most notably to our illustrious UK PM, who managed to give a country-wide presser with his personal meeting ID clearly visible on the screen behind him for all to see. However, for the vast majority of meetings, this really is no concern. The reason being that you can always see and hear people joining the meeting. None of these supposed 'insecure' services allowed invisible joining.
I've been on many calls going back years, particularly when dialing in via a landline phone was more common, where somebody has dropped into a meeting we were not expecting. You get the beep or see the extra party on the screen. If they don't identify themselves when asked you boot them. Yes, there are scenarios where this brief interlude could allow them to see more than is safe, for example if one of the participants was under a protection order, but that potential needs to be covered as part of the aforementioned safeguarding checklist.
Not saying that Zoom doesn't have it's security concerns, but that isn't the highest on the list.
 
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KidCurry

Well-known member
Assuming that there is some structure to the coaching, so it is more of a lecture with questions compared to a traditional coaching session of watching the student, what risks are you thinking of KC?
Safeguarding provisions would need to be ticked off but that is the same regardless of whether it is in person or video.
Hi tabashir
I am happy to answer the first question, but before I do I am interested what the 'safeguarding provisions' are that need to be ticked off.
 

tabashir

Supporter
Supporter
Hi KC, thanks for the reply. The provisions are essentially what you and others have mentioned or alluded to in the thread, things like vulnerable adults, protection orders, juniors etc. The provisions themselves will vary based on the club demographic, so what you have to 'tick off' will also vary.
 

KidCurry

Well-known member
Hi KC, thanks for the reply. The provisions are essentially what you and others have mentioned or alluded to in the thread, things like vulnerable adults, protection orders, juniors etc. The provisions themselves will vary based on the club demographic, so what you have to 'tick off' will also vary.
👍
These are areas I would look to be sure are safe as a qualified private tutor or coach but it is far from complete as experience is a major contributor to effective teaching online. I only teach adults and this is from a teaching perspective, although I see coaching being not dissimilar.
1. Insurance is in place. As a qualified person you have a legal responsibility to ensure the advice you give is legal and safe. Unlike a laymen in a conversation. For example you may advocate an exercise regime that causes one of your pupils an injury, or they may not warm up properly if you forget to advise them to do so. This is why I asked if AGB insurance cover coaches for online coaching.
2. Student protection. You must ensure all student information is kept securely. That even means information your PC is cashing that you may not be aware of.
The student may be vulnerable for a number of reasons not just age. They may have varying reasons to ask for help. In these difficult times people may just be after the routine of communicating with someone. This may lead to dependencies or one sided relationships that should be avoided.
Vulnerable students may have personal/family issues. Can you identify these and do you know what to do if you feel someone is at risk?
It is far more difficult identify students fears/concerns or elements of depression online. Are you sure you can handle this situation? As a teacher I have access to all this information usually at the start of semester.
How safe is your office/room. Is there anything in view that may cause offense to any of your students? Is your screen backdrop unoffensive when sharing screens.
Is your student recording you? For what reasons? Teaching relationships can change direction and become toxic.
3. To protect yourself as a teacher avoid giving personal information where possible.
Again avoid developing any personal relationships.
Have you reviewed all online resources you plan to use?
Keep your social profiles safe and well protected.
You may have some contractual duty of care but there is on statutory requirement to keep your students, if adults, safe. This doesn't mean you shouldn't.
Establish a set of rules at the start of a teaching programme.
Make sure shared URLs and websites are safe.
Do not open scanned emails from students.
People can act differently online than they would face to face.
As a teacher you are in a position of power. Be aware of your position.

This really just scrapes the surface of risks online teaching has and in most cases will never happen. A lot of this is from adult teacher training, if youngsters are involved it gets a lot more complex, but it has value in coaching I think. It's not intended to put people off, there's thousands of on online coaching sessions going on each day. But I would advise some research into the subject before jumping in. Someone once said...'don't test the depth of water with both feet'. Think it might have been Warren Buffett.
 
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