On old chesnut, women & men's comps

Johnh159

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Watched the darts last night and Fallon Sherrock was the first woman in the World Champs to beat a man.
Not a freak occurance, just some really good darts by both players.

Why are we still splitting the two in archery, particularly indoors where poundage means nothing?
 


KidCurry

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More medals to go around :) Although I see Korean woman shoot better than their male counterparts, on the whole, and within the UK, men seem to out shoot women. The recent barebow champs is an example. The top woman would have come 11th overall. Last years National Indoors recurve top lady would have been 2nd overall but 2nd lady would have been 7th overall.
Perhaps the question should be ... why do men generally shoot better than women? My guess is a draw weight/bow weight/stability thing. Or is it just a numbers game?
 


AndyW

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Might even be simply that in general we have / prioritise more time for hobbies. Certainly with my wife other things take priority whereas we just think stuff it and go down the wood or wherever.
 


bimble

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Watched the darts last night and Fallon Sherrock was the first woman in the World Champs to beat a man.
Not a freak occurance, just some really good darts by both players.

Why are we still splitting the two in archery, particularly indoors where poundage means nothing?
Because when you look at the scores there is a difference. Because poundage doesn't mean "nothing". Even indoors.
 


probability.
If you made archery compulsory the number of women in the top 50% would be pretty equal to men but when you go to the top decile the number of women will be less because that will be dominated by those who actually shoot and less women shoot..
 


bimble

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OK that's recurve covered, what about compound??
there have been three or four 900 female scores at Vegas, ever... on the gents line 10-20 every year. Higher poundages and longer draw lengths would put large shafts closer to being in spine, greater strength would allow a steadier aim with heavier weights on the bow. Doesn't mean the ladies would always score less (I think both ladies in the gold medal match in Rome scored more than in the gents compound gold medal match) but they are all disadvantages.

At Nimes last season there were 10 gents who scored more than the then current ladies fita 18 WR, and after the ladies WR has been upped twice this season, there were still three gents who had scored more. All of which were short of the gents WR.

And whereas indoors might be where "poundage means nothing", scores aren't only related to poundage.

At local shoots you might find that the two genders can shoot against each other fairly evenly, but internationally you would find the podiums dominated by the gents. At least until the ladies were able to push their scores up to the level that the gents score. And that probably wouldn't be at the numbers of the gents that you get.
 


Timid Toad

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It is an open round. And women do not currently perform as well for many reasons. Strength size and cultural.
 


Johnh159

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Thanks TT, so there is nothing to stop a woman entering the Gents Recurve at a WR/NR status tournament - should the entry forms be redesigned?
 


Emmadragon

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And I've scored it. But in a WR shoot filled with both ladies and gents up to GB level, upwards of 120 entries on 3 occasions, I can only think of 1 woman who shot a 'male' round. And she was a long bowyer.
Speaking as a female archer, I notice that is is normally men who start this kind of discussion. I'm quite happy with the current set-up, and if I really have the overwhelming desire to, I can enter any 'male' round. So why does it need to change?
 


bimble

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And I've scored it. But in a WR shoot filled with both ladies and gents up to GB level, upwards of 120 entries on 3 occasions, I can only think of 1 woman who shot a 'male' round. And she was a long bowyer.
Speaking as a female archer, I notice that is is normally men who start this kind of discussion. I'm quite happy with the current set-up, and if I really have the overwhelming desire to, I can enter any 'male' round. So why does it need to change?
I've seen Naomi Folkard shoot the 90m 1440 at a double wrs shoot before (after coming back from the Olympics (2008 I think)), and I believe that all the ladies records for the "gents" rounds have been claimed... though some are a lot older than most records. But then again, if you were paying to go to a competition I guess most people would chose to shoot the round that would see them in competition against others/ranking/target awards...
 


fbirder

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During the 2012 Olympics I was a GamesMaker at the shooting venue. I was chatting to one of the pistol shooters about why they split it between male and female events. He said it was because the men got fed up being beaten by the women.
 


Johnh159

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And I've scored it. But in a WR shoot filled with both ladies and gents up to GB level, upwards of 120 entries on 3 occasions, I can only think of 1 woman who shot a 'male' round. And she was a long bowyer.
Speaking as a female archer, I notice that is is normally men who start this kind of discussion. I'm quite happy with the current set-up, and if I really have the overwhelming desire to, I can enter any 'male' round. So why does it need to change?
Thanks for pointing out that it's generally men that start this kind of discussion.
I thought equality, where physical strength is not an issue (subject to some of the comments above), should be aspired to.
Archery would kill for some of the positive comments that the darts has gathered (even a Tweet from Billy Jean King to Fallon reported in the national news).
I'm pleased you're happy with the status quo, does that mean it shouldn't be discussed?

I would have thought, particularly for indoor rounds, a mixed round would put men & women on an equal footing. Its all well and good saying a woman can enter the Gents Recurve, but in relaity how many:
1. know they can
2. feel comfortable in doing so.
By having the ladies round it seems implicit that that is where women shoot shoot.

Yes there would be less medals but I'd be cutting off my nose by suggesting this. By far the best recurver in our club is a woman and she is the benchmark for the rest of us.

It seems to me to be a real differentiator for our sport. There are very few out there (equestrianism comes to mind) that allow equallity.

Just throwing it out there but ........

if the WA70 recurve round was mixed would that give a better argument for the compounds getting to the Olympics (also mixed)?
 


Timid Toad

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When scores are truly equal, no problem. And it should be women taking the lead on it, not men.
 


bimble

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Yes there would be less medals but I'd be cutting off my nose by suggesting this. By far the best recurver in our club is a woman and she is the benchmark for the rest of us.
But that is a really, really small group to make such a decision on.

And whilst women might very well win occasional medals, the fact is you would see fewer women on the podium at major tournaments, and that is hardly encouraging to try to increase the participation of women in our sport.
 


ben tarrow

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Archery would kill for some of the positive comments that the darts has gathered (even a Tweet from Billy Jean King to Fallon reported in the national news).
The sad part of all this is that the darts incident is a "first".
That means one woman in how ever many years that women could have taken part, succeeded.

How long before the darts community, or rather the people who are offended on behalf of other people, are asking why only one woman has succeeded.

If we had mixed indoor archery and women seldom or never won, wouldnt people be suggesting making changes so that women stand a "fairer" chance? Something like certain political parties with their women only short lists.?

Address the reasons that women arent achieving the same standards as men in all levels of our sport and the question of whether we should have separate men/women groups or not will stop being an issue
 


KidCurry

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Address the reasons that women arent achieving the same standards as men in all levels of our sport and the question of whether we should have separate men/women groups or not will stop being an issue
In summary those reasons are ?
 


Timid Toad

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Oh Lordy we went over some of those ad infinitum on a thread a couple of years ago.
Some are physical. Many more are cultural. As mentioned higher up this thread it's always a male correspondent that wants to make things "equal". Why is that? I doubt it's a sense of comfort and laziness on the part of female competitors meaning they fail to lead the way.
Until the need to remove men's and women's competitions can be proved they should stay.
 


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