[English Longbow] Permitted loose style Longbow

Raven's_Eye

Active member
Ironman
Not something I agree with when you consider that some people would be able to continue taking part in a sport with an aid that otherwise would be unable to do so. If the arguement you present is to hold up then they should not allow release aids for any discipline.

If there were provisos for all possible outcomes then the rule book would be a lot thicker than it is. As Blakey said, you can use a release aid but you'll count as a compound. AGB also follows BLBS for most of it's rules regarding longbows so that AGB can attend BLBS shoots with the same bow, and BLBS can attend AGB shoots for traditional shoots.
There is nothing stopping you using a release aid at club level, but in theory you will not class for any classifications/club records etc.

I was not aware that sight marks were allowed.. that is good to hear...
Rubber bands/ground markers/marks on bows are common amongst longbow archers (for target), personally I view them as cheating which is why I don't use them. You can even have a bow sling but I've yet to see any longbow archer use this.


Tennis cricket etc are team sports and one expects similar kit or uniforms to be worn when in competition. Archery whilst it may be in inter-something competition/event/whatever.. remains essentially an individual activity and I really can not be convinced to see a need for dress codes other than please someone else's concept of what is to them aesthetically acceptable..
I'll agree cricket is a team sport, but tennis is individual unless you play doubles. The only difference is you always need an opponent, as the dress rules only really apply to competitions then a dress regulation seems fitting. You see most (at target at least) wearing club kit anyway.

Flamez mentioned that and I have read, only today, about that perticular difficulty arising and that if the preference of how one holds the string is already chosen it an be taken into account when the bow is being tillered. As regards anyone else attempting to impose practices of their choosing and excluding those I would choose to adopt then sorry I am not going to allow people with that sort of arrogant sense of self importance to do that to me. It would not be as though I was doing something that would give me an unfair advantage that other people would be excluded from adopting if they so wished.
In regards to longbows though, I've just had a quick scan of the rules and where you have your fingers on the string isn't mentioned (forgive me if I missed it during my quick scan, if I have please point me to it).
 

Phil Sheffield

New member
There is an accepted hierarchy of degrees of difficulty in shooting in competition. Compound is the easiest by far, longbow the hardest. That is reflected in the scores. Restrictions are there in every category to give a level playing field in that discipline. If you shoot with the perceived advantage of a mechanical aid from another category, then you are shooting in that category.
Says you.. I prefer to differ to that opinion.
So if you want to shoot longbow with a release aid, you can, but you will be shooting as a compound. I have friends who shoot recurve with crippled hands. If they want to compete, they have to make a choice.
Interestingly you do not define what the choices are that your friends with crippled hands have to make.
Put up with the pain or use a massive dose of pain killers
or
Compete almost pointlessly in the wrong category
or the more likely
.. Not Compete ..because their disability has excluded them due to some ruling that has no consideration for people with that particular disability.

Its very simple really just allow people in any and all categories access to the same aids.

Are you suggesting then that your friends if using a release aid and competing in the compound class ought to insist that to maintain a level playing field that anyone else competing in that class be only allowed the types of sighting aids that can be normally attached to a longbow.. ie. None? It would be only fair but I can't see that happening.

Do they shoot recurve as a recurve, ie with a tab, or as a compound, with an aid? If this is seen as a disadvantage then the answer is either to shoot as a compound, or simply not compete. :)
You give the impression that you would prefer that your 'friends' should not compete with any proper consideration being given for their challenges.
I wonder...are they really still your friends having read your negative attitude towards their challenges



It appears to me that there might be a few rules that in the light of more informed and progressive 21st Century attitudes, particularly towards inclusion, that ought to be reviewed and the opportunity to submit gather and made known to us all the opinions of all interested parties, followed perhaps by some kind of vote where some changes might be wanted by a significant number of people.
 

Diwrnach

New member
Correct me if I am wrong, but i have been told by several bowyers that an English longbow should only be shot split finger as that is how they are tillered and shooting them three under or string walking etc will be to much strain on the lower limb potentially causing a break.
 

Del the Cat

Well-known member
Correct me if I am wrong, but i have been told by several bowyers that an English longbow should only be shot split finger as that is how they are tillered and shooting them three under or string walking etc will be to much strain on the lower limb potentially causing a break.
You are correct... anyone who string walks a wooden bow should be slapped round the back of the head and told to stop being a twonk.
Del

BTW in response to some of the other posts. One can shoot without "competing" I compete against myself, I am happy when others do well, but I have no interest in winning or ruining my enjoyment by trying to "beat" others (interesting word there.. beat). If I have to shoot in a "wrong" category because I've made a bow that doesn't conform... I couldn't care less. Some of the rules are self evidently nonsense, but we can see why they are needed... I try to go with the flow. Just don't start on the bamboo thing again ;)
 

jbridges

New member
I personally think that archery is an increadibly inclusive sport. There are not many sports where people from of all ages can shoot. I shoot mainly IFAA field and we have more styles and divisions than you can shake a stick at. No matter what kit you want to shoot, there is a recognised division that should be reasonably close. We have divisions for cubs, juniors, adults and veterans. Another point to note is that EVERY national and international shoot is an open shoot. There are no selection commitees, you pay your entry fees and turn up. For this reason you can attend an archery tournament with 2000 or more archers. Now that is just field archery which is a little limited in terms of access because it is mostly held in woodland. I really don't know why it isn't called forest archery. Anyway for an archer who is perhaps wheel chair bound we have target archery which provides shooting on flat ground, usually with exceptionally good vehicle acess to somewhere near. We have equipment ranging from the primative to the space age so changeing equipment to a lighter bow allows many of us to remain in the sport. So my view is that we should celebrate how diverse and inclusive our sport really is. Especially when compared to almost all others I can think of. I also think that if there was a need to support a different variant of archery, then a group of likeminded archers can get off the pot and organise it. I'm looking forward to trying horseback archery and archery skeet. Anyway it is just my penies worth.
 

Simon Banks

New member
I'm just about to get a longbow.....fingers crossed
I'm currently shooting recurve both indoor's, outdoors and field
For fieldshooting i use bare bow with an up to the eye 3 fingers under the arrow for aiming
however reading the NFAS rules of shooting it says mediteranean loose 1 over 2 under for longbow
i've tried this with my recurve but couldnt hack it, i'm instinctive and aim high/low range dependant by looking along the shaft
is the mediteranean the only recognised hold for longbow?
any info greatfully rec'd
Sort of technically Mediterranean is the only permitted grip but you can get away with Flemish if up I just touch the string with your ring finger. No mark in the bow , no string walking, one consistent anchor point throughout the comp.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

Phil Sheffield

New member
I have friends who shoot recurve with crippled hands. If they want to compete, they have to make a choice. Do they shoot recurve as a recurve, ie with a tab, or as a compound, with an aid? If this is seen as a disadvantage then the answer is either to shoot as a compound, or simply not compete. :)
So what you are saying to people you CALL your friends. Shoot your Longbow use a release aid if you need one and we'll put you on the compound class, where you yourself have already admitted compound shooting is the easiest and long bow the hardest... Or DON'T compete its your choice. Which is actually no real choice. My point re-enforced and I'll add I am sure glad if you you treat your friends that way that you are not a friend of mine. Are you sure they still consider you one.
 

Mark31121

Member
Ironman
So what you are saying to people you CALL your friends. Shoot your Longbow use a release aid if you need one and we'll put you on the compound class, where you yourself have already admitted compound shooting is the easiest and long bow the hardest... Or DON'T compete its your choice. Which is actually no real choice. My point re-enforced and I'll add I am sure glad if you you treat your friends that way that you are not a friend of mine. Are you sure they still consider you one.
Are you expecting a different answer after a year? This thread is now over a decade old.

If you're going to compete (i.e. in competitions) then everyone needs to follow the rules - there are some sanctions for disabilities, but a release aid for a longbow isn't one of them.

If you're shooting within a group of friends, then it really doesn't matter as long as you all agree what's acceptable.
 

Phil Sheffield

New member
Are you expecting a different answer after a year? This thread is now over a decade old.
I know it is I was rather hoping to hear about a more enlightened approach to disability and enablement

If you're going to compete (i.e. in competitions) then everyone needs to follow the rules - there are some sanctions for disabilities, but a release aid for a longbow isn't one of them..
I know I am just surprised that in the 21st century the majority of organised activities appear to be doing what they can to prevent people from being excluded from participating with the rest of the members because of disability unlike archery it appears.

If you're shooting within a group of friends, then it really doesn't matter as long as you all agree what's acceptable.
I know it does not. My concerns were not for myself I need no dispensations or special rule changes to continue enjoying shooting as badly as I currently do. What other people think about me, my archery ability (or lack of) ,my bow set up choices or use thereof is immaterial to me.

My only concern is that a group of which I am a member has people in it that would rather label or categorise someone as 'disabled' than allow them to use available equipment that would enable them to take part in mainstream competition on equal terms.
 

Mark31121

Member
Ironman
Firstly when I said you, I didn't mean you personally, replace it with one/people/archers etc.

The whole point of inclusion for disabilities is to keep everyone on a level playing field, but not giving someone an advantage because of it.

Allowing release aids for longbow would do that, so then everyone would have to be able to use them to keep the equal terms that you're after.

Another argument is where do we draw the line. OK, so we've allowed everyone to use release aids - but what about the VI archers or those in wheelchairs? Does that mean that everyone needs to shoot blindfolded and seated?

Inclusion really is a tricky subject and isn't as simple as "letting this particular person use this item makes it fair"
 

Phil Sheffield

New member
Firstly when I said you, I didn't mean you personally, replace it with one/people/archers etc.
Ah..OK.

The whole point of inclusion for disabilities is to keep everyone on a level playing field, but not giving someone an advantage because of it.

Allowing release aids for longbow would do that, so then everyone would have to be able to use them to keep the equal terms that you're after.
I do not believe that the use of a release aid offers any advantage to the user other than enabling some people with painful hand conditions arthritis for example to participate when their condition may prevent them or provide a disincentive , especially where participation is prolonged as in a competition.

Another argument is where do we draw the line. OK, so we've allowed everyone to use release aids - but what about the VI archers or those in wheelchairs? Does that mean that everyone needs to shoot blindfolded and seated?
Not only do I think a release aid provides no advantage over other archers I do think that not actually using one's fingers is disadvantagous to the participant. As for VI archers or other archers that can not stand for whatever reason my understanding of their situation and provisions made is insufficient for me to be able to form an informed opinion. So I decline to do so.

Inclusion really is a tricky subject and isn't as simple as "letting this particular person use this item makes it fair"
I concede that in some cases what you say is perfectly correct, however, I do not believe this to be the case for release aids.

This is an issue the outcome of which I would like to see resolved in a more inclusive fashion ie. by a consultation with or a reforendum of all registered and/or club member archers and not just a for all intents and purposes a select (selected by who?) few from various 'governing bodies'.


Until then Mark it would appear that at this time we shall have to agree to differ on this, as clearly neither of us is willing to back down on this issue.
 

KidCurry

Well-known member
...
I do not believe that the use of a release aid offers any advantage to the user other than enabling some people with painful hand conditions arthritis for example to participate when their condition may prevent them or provide a disincentive , especially where participation is prolonged as in a competition.

...Not only do I think a release aid provides no advantage over other archers I do think that not actually using one's fingers is disadvantagous to the participant.
Well, it is probably the single most advantageous item in archery. In terms of advantage it is right up there with, or even out ranks the clicker. As it creates no lateral bend in the arrow I don't know how a longbow would respond or permit the arrow to clear the riser without contact.
 

Del the Cat

Well-known member
"disabled" people are quite capable of arguing their own case rather than being patronised by someone who feels the need to create a problem where none really exists.
There are plenty of suitable bow styles for various strength and physical limitations. My ability to draw a heavy self bow is diminishing, but I can move to bows of modern materials, compounds and /or crossbows as and when I need.
Del
 

Phil Sheffield

New member
Well, it is probably the single most advantageous item in archery. In terms of advantage it is right up there with, or even out ranks the clicker.
I totally agree with you on the importance of finger contact and the feel of the shot being made.... which is undoubtedly very advantagous over the mechanical releases but use of one would at least enable some archers to participate or enhance their experience of doing so if pain or distress are being avoided.

No clickers on longbows but if I'm honest I don't personally agree with them when shooting my recurve as barebow or with sights. For me archery is all about feel... and becoming a part of an arrow casting machine which I think a clicker does would not appeal to me. I appreciate the advantages of using a clicker but choose to forgo them. Though apparently they have become the kind of aid that competitors need in order to compete on equal terms as others do use them. Odd isnt it that clickers are not banned on the same principle as release aids are for all but compounds.
 

KidCurry

Well-known member
I totally agree with you on the importance of finger contact and the feel of the shot being made.... which is undoubtedly very advantagous over the mechanical releases but use of one would at least enable some archers to participate or enhance their experience of doing so if pain or distress are being avoided.
Ah... I might not have made myself clear. I think the release aid is right up there with the clicker, probably contributes even more to accuracy than the clicker. I think there is as much 'feel' when I shoot my compound as when I shoot by AFB, just depends where you look for it.
 

jerryRTD

Well-known member
Kid ,Phil you really should think again about a release aid being a great aid as far as long bow shooting is concerned. A long bow has, as near as makes no odds no cutout at all. That means that to get the arrow around the bow it needs to use the power of the bow to bend the arrow AND the action of the string slipping off the fingers to deflect the string and nocking point thus the arrow gets bent and the 'archers paradox' does the rest. Use a release aid and; no string slipping off fingers no arrow bending round the bow, no arrow anywhere near the target. The release aid, as far as long bow is concerned is as much good as chocolate fireguard, come to that you can eat a chocolate fire guard.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Jerry, I am not sure that the fingers are needed to create a bend in an arrow. The fact the arrow is off centre should put a bend in it, plus the column loading applied by the string at release.
I think that a release aid should be used to enable archers to shoot arrows, who would otherwise find it too painful for their fingers. If that sort of thinking is considered to be "correct" then the rules can be considered afterwards.
If the rules are set up initially, to ensure fair play, rather than to include those with hand problems, there is a chance that some will not shoot who otherwise might. It is a matter of deciding which is the priority; fair play or inclusion.
A longbow archer with a release aid, having to shoot as a compound archer, strikes me as unfair.
 

KidCurry

Well-known member
Kid ,Phil you really should think again about a release aid being a great aid as far as long bow shooting is concerned.
No I don't need to think again. You just repeated what I said. No arrow bend means arrow contact.
.... As it creates no lateral bend in the arrow I don't know how a longbow would respond or permit the arrow to clear the riser without contact.
I think that a release aid should be used to enable archers to shoot arrows, who would otherwise find it too painful for their fingers. If that sort of thinking is considered to be "correct" then the rules can be considered afterwards.
If the rules are set up initially, to ensure fair play, rather than to include those with hand problems, there is a chance that some will not shoot who otherwise might. It is a matter of deciding which is the priority; fair play or inclusion.
A longbow archer with a release aid, having to shoot as a compound archer, strikes me as unfair.
This issue was addressed by the sprinters a few years ago when blades were introduced for amputees. Amputees claimed they should be allowed to run against non amputee athletes. The Olympic committee decided the blades gave too much advantage.
I have arthritis in both shoulders. I would like to rest my bow on a stand so I can compete on an equal level to athletes that do not have arthritis. However, as I have tried this I know resting my bow arm on a stand gives me a massive advantage way beyond just getting around the arthritis.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
I see that blades can give an athlete an advantage. Oscar Pistorius ran against able bodied athletes, and that was good for him and for the crowds and possibly for the able bodied athletes, too. I remember hearing about the restrictions put on blades so that any advantage could be reduced; something along the lines that the hips would be at normal height for the athlete in question. But, put into that mix the fact that the athlete is working against other vast disadvantages, it seems only fair to do all that is possible to get inclusion first, then work out the fairness details as a second priority.
 

KidCurry

Well-known member
... it seems only fair to do all that is possible to get inclusion first, then work out the fairness details as a second priority.
Inclusion should be the driving force. I think testing should be done first, but without fairness competition is pointless, inclusion or not.
 
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