[English Longbow] Permitted loose style Longbow

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Yes, you are right that competitions are pointless without fairness. However, fairness can be almost impossible in some circumstances.
How can a sprinter on blades be treated fairly when competing against athletes with both their legs? How can anyone judge how fast the blade athlete should be able to run, in order to say the blades are neither an advantage nor disadvantage?
How can the longbow archer's score using a release aid, be measured against what that archer could manage if the draw hand functioned normally?
Doing some testing first.... would entail what testing? That is a genuine question, I just can't think what tests to do.
 


geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Yes, you are right that competitions are pointless without fairness. However, fairness can be almost impossible in some circumstances.
How can a sprinter on blades be treated fairly when competing against athletes with both their legs? How can anyone judge how fast the blade athlete should be able to run, in order to say the blades are neither an advantage nor disadvantage?
How can the longbow archer's score using a release aid, be measured against what that archer could manage if the draw hand functioned normally?
Doing some testing first.... would entail what testing? That is a genuine question, I just can't think what tests to do.
 


KidCurry

Well-known member
Yes, you are right that competitions are pointless without fairness. However, fairness can be almost impossible in some circumstances.
How can a sprinter on blades be treated fairly when competing against athletes with both their legs? How can anyone judge how fast the blade athlete should be able to run, in order to say the blades are neither an advantage nor disadvantage?
How can the longbow archer's score using a release aid, be measured against what that archer could manage if the draw hand functioned normally?
Doing some testing first.... would entail what testing? That is a genuine question, I just can't think what tests to do.
Comparative testing of the best times/scores over time.
How can anyone judge how fast the blade athlete should be able to run, in order to say the blades are neither an advantage nor disadvantage?
Simple... you time them. If the best blade runner is faster than the best non-blade runner there is an advantage. If not there isn't. The problem is complicated by technical improvements with, say, the blades, as these can change without any input from the athlete. I've shot recurve with a release aid and it's almost as good as compound. I think it may be a case of never being fair on way or the other.
 


Phil Sheffield

New member
Kid ,Phil you really should think again about a release aid being a great aid as far as long bow shooting is concerned. A long bow has, as near as makes no odds no cutout at all. That means that to get the arrow around the bow it needs to use the power of the bow to bend the arrow AND the action of the string slipping off the fingers to deflect the string and nocking point thus the arrow gets bent and the 'archers paradox' does the rest. Use a release aid and; no string slipping off fingers no arrow bending round the bow, no arrow anywhere near the target. The release aid, as far as long bow is concerned is as much good as chocolate fireguard, come to that you can eat a chocolate fire guard.
I am at present fortunate in that I am not in need of anything other than more skill, practice, consistency and patience to help me shoot. I began this conversation intending it to be about allowing the use of release aids for all classes. I do not think a release aid would offer advantage to the user other than that of enabling some archers to draw a bow that through various health related issues could not do so as well or as comfortably without one. Others differ and I for one can agree to differ.

However, If enough attention is drawn to this issue then the manufacturers might seeing a marketing opportunity may get interested and then it would only a matter of time before this (IMHO petty and) excluding ban is lifted.

This is the 21st Century and people use aids for almost anything in many walks of like so why not archery?

There are other rules that fortunately whilst they do not affect me directly as yetI can not see why there is so much resistance to change but as their god supposedly told the israelites "..one battle at a time.."

We are no longer as willing or as likely to let age, pain or disability restrict what we can do especially when the means to enable us exists. If I could not participate in something as I would want to because of pain I would use an aid if it prevented or lessened the pain. If some dinosaur were to try prevent me from using that aid and I were to choose to comply I would instead control the pain by taking pain killers and when that becomes more widespread how long before someone with their head up their ass has us all peeing in a cup before we shoot.
 


Del the Cat

Well-known member
No one is stopping anyone doing anything!
Shoot whatever you like...
Who cares what class it is put in?
It is about participation and competing against yourself....
enough already!
Del
 


geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Simple... you time them. If the best blade runner is faster than the best non-blade runner there is an advantage.
What if the best blade runner would have been the best non-blade runner?
I am struggling to find out how the other blade runners would be judged compared to other non-blade runners.
I think a bit like Phil Sheffield, release aids should be allowed for any bow if the archer concerned would otherwise not shoot. If the release aid gives someone the chance to break records, perhaps that is recorded as a separate record from hand release archers.
 


Phil Sheffield

New member
No one is stopping anyone doing anything!
Shoot whatever you like...
Who cares what class it is put in?
It is about participation and competing against yourself....
enough already!
Del
I agree with you totally Del. But... and with all due respect Del. Some people that want to put a peoples' bows in the wrong categories seem to care a lot. A long bow, bare bow or recurve are all for some archaic reason if the archer uses a release aid they are to be classed as compounds in competiton where the liklihood of wining against people with telescopic sights.

The 21st centuary is about inclusion and enabling not exclusion.
 


KidCurry

Well-known member
If the release aid gives someone the chance to break records, perhaps that is recorded as a separate record from hand release archers.
You have just created another bow class... unlimited recurve... cool :)
I guess what Phil is looking for is 'unlimited longbow' class :)
 


geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
You might be right there.
Or are we talking about archers with disabilities being able to shoot alongside able bodied ones, but competing against others with like disability?
 


geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
You might be right there.
Or are we talking about archers with disabilities being able to shoot alongside able bodied ones, but competing against others with like disability?
 


English Bowman

Active member
The fact is that the loose is one of the hardest things to get right in archery, a release aid will give you a cleaner loose than with fingers every time. There is no question about this. So someone using a release aid has an advantage over someone using fingers, if this wasn't the case then compound limited wouldn't have died off, and people shooting compound ltd would compete against unlimited.
Based on this I don't think that it would be fair to allow someone to compete in a class that bans release aids using one. They can compete in the compound category and if they want to compete on a level playing field then use a compound.
If they want to shoot a longbow or recurve with a release, then I have no problem with that, but not in direct competition with those abiding by the rules.
 


geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
If they want to shoot a longbow or recurve with a release, then I have no problem with that, but not in direct competition with those abiding by the rules.
I don't disagree with that; just wonder if there could be a way to allow indirect competition.Some sort of score adjusting.
It can be done for archers who have just started, so they can compete against more experienced and better archers.
 


English Bowman

Active member
I don't disagree with that; just wonder if there could be a way to allow indirect competition.Some sort of score adjusting.
It can be done for archers who have just started, so they can compete against more experienced and better archers.
No problems with them shooting in a handicap round, providing that the scores that they used to claim the handicap were shot with the release aid. The only problem with that is a lack of handicap rounds.
 


English Bowman

Active member
I don't disagree with that; just wonder if there could be a way to allow indirect competition.Some sort of score adjusting.
It can be done for archers who have just started, so they can compete against more experienced and better archers.
No problems with them shooting in a handicap round, providing that the scores that they used to claim the handicap were shot with the release aid. The only problem with that is a lack of handicap rounds.
 


Raven's_Eye

Active member
Ironman
The problem with using a release aid with Rec/BB/Lb as other have pointed out is that it provides an advantage over those that don't. This is undeniable, it's a smoother loose, and reduces muscle fatigue over long period shoots providing a more consistent loose.

As EB pointed out, competing in a handicap based competition would provide some direct competition but lack of those competitions can be an issue. Without perhaps the development of a new form of release aid, perhaps one with three points of contact on the string and three triggers, to mimic that of a finger release.
 


Raven's_Eye

Active member
Ironman
The problem with using a release aid with Rec/BB/Lb as other have pointed out is that it provides an advantage over those that don't. This is undeniable, it's a smoother loose, and reduces muscle fatigue over long period shoots providing a more consistent loose.

As EB pointed out, competing in a handicap based competition would provide some direct competition but lack of those competitions can be an issue. Without perhaps the development of a new form of release aid, perhaps one with three points of contact on the string and three triggers, to mimic that of a finger release.
 


geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Yes, the release aid is an advantage. But using a release aid is a means of allowing archers to shoot who otherwise would not. Not all disabilities allow a hand operation of a release aid; some use the mouth to trigger their release.
The problem of fair play is real enough.
If this was happening where I shoot, I would suggest the release aid user tells those shooting normally what they generally score for a dozen or a round. The rest can decide how many points per end/dozen/round should be used to adjust the scores for a fairer comparison.
If that is too vague for some, then they could use handicap tables, if they are available.
 


Raven's_Eye

Active member
Ironman
I agree it gets people shooting who otherwise can't. We have one archer in our club that shoots compound due to tendon damage which means he couldn't draw a bow using his fingers. Which perhaps developing a new form of release could allow to compete with other bow types.

Geoff I would prefer the handicap method, as average end can vary from day to day and skill, whilst handicap can be more consistent.
 


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