T Draw vs Medieval/Warbow Draw

Del the Cat

Well-known member
This is NOT a heavy bow... it's just to try and illustrate the mechanics and to give you all something to argue/disagree with ;)
while you are all stuck indoors.
Del
 

Cereleste

Supporter
Supporter
It's hard to tell from the video angle, but I'd be willing to bet his right elbow is a good six inches or so to the right of aligned. Or at least in order to get to that hold, it has to go through a point where the elbow is bent about as far out of alignment as you can get. The second reminds me of the predraw of some female Korean archers. Chris Hill demonstrates the principle nicely here . Starting with the right elbow high keeps the alignment much more central and makes the draw much easier.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
When I watch the two I see just how similar they are! The main differences I spotted are in the speed of the draw and the height of the arms before the real drawing starts.
In the first one, the arms tend to stay level with a line through the shoulders; in the second the arms are both well above shoulder height, especially the draw elbow, and bow hand.
Also, the second draw is almost starting with a run up; like riding a bike up a hill.
The second draw is just a slightly exaggerated version of a recurve draw.
With the draw elbow above the shoulder( draw2) you can use the bigger muscles to bring the elbow down and into line.
The shoulder level draw( 1) makes the elbow start its draw from well out to the side. A mechanical disadvantage.
 

Del the Cat

Well-known member
I've just finished an 80# @28" ELB. I can't get anywhere near drawing it with a T draw, but the heavy bow style draw is getting me very close... another couple of days and I'll be there. I'm warming up with the bow shown in the video and then trying the 80#... makes me wonder how I ever drew 100# eight years ago!
TBF I'm now 68 so I s'pose it's to be expected!
Del
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Hi Del,
When you do the T draw, you raise your arms, then stop, then start to draw from a standing start. With the other draw you are already on the move as the drawing starts. The other part of this is that the higher arms bring in stronger muscles, and the bow arm acts like a cam, moving the bow further forwards as the draw continues. With the T draw the arm just resists the bow moving back towards you.
 

Del the Cat

Well-known member
Hi Del,
When you do the T draw, you raise your arms, then stop, then start to draw from a standing start. With the other draw you are already on the move as the drawing starts. The other part of this is that the higher arms bring in stronger muscles, and the bow arm acts like a cam, moving the bow further forwards as the draw continues. With the T draw the arm just resists the bow moving back towards you.
Exactly... maybe I exaggerate the flaws of the T draw slightly. But it's not the start of the Tdraw that locks you up... there is no way I could have continued the T draw to the same draw length as I did with the other style.
Del
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Hi Del, Yes. I can see that you were struggling, but that was partly because you were going slowly and didn't take a run at it in the same way.
If we just consider two still frames; one at 5 sec and the other at 13 sec you can see how the arms are higher in the second shot. What we can't see but can work out is that the draw elbow at 13 sec is up close to your head and in line with the arrow. At 5 sec the elbow is out to the side and not in line.You are going to use the biceps to try to start the draw.
 

Del the Cat

Well-known member
Hi Del, Yes. I can see that you were struggling, but that was partly because you were going slowly and didn't take a run at it in the same way.
If we just consider two still frames; one at 5 sec and the other at 13 sec you can see how the arms are higher in the second shot. What we can't see but can work out is that the draw elbow at 13 sec is up close to your head and in line with the arrow. At 5 sec the elbow is out to the side and not in line.You are going to use the biceps to try to start the draw.
I tried to be consistent... but I was going slow and trying to hold (something i wouldn't do if shooting)... ( I don't think target archers "take a run at it" ?).
If you doubt the advantages of the 2nd style you need to try a bow that is on or near your limit.
I just finished an 80# bow... there is no way I could T draw it, but by using the heavy bow draw I got to my usual 27" draw see here:-

Del
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Hi Del,
I must be giving the wrong impressions here. heehee.
I do not doubt for one second that the second draw will feel easier than the first.
To my way of thinking your second draw is not far from current recurve, though slightly faster. Your first draw has both arms too low to make it a strong form of drawing.
If we go back a few years you will see recurve archers, "taking a run at it" They raised their bow arm, just as you do in draw 2 and lowered it as the draw continued. If you remember, it was banned as they were drawing and still pointing too high when they reached full draw.
All they do these days is to keep the draw elbow and hand as high as the bow hand so the arrow stay about horizontal all through the draw.
Very similar to your second draw style.
Japanese archery Kyudo, uses a similar draw but more extreme. They look like it is "all style", but it is, as you say about your draw, a very effective way to draw.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Hi Del.
Something to add to our discussion that has been missed out so far.( not surprising really as it isn't 100% on topic)
When I watch the two types of draw that you demonstrated; one is full of confidence and the the looks as if you fear the bow might break.
That is not a criticism of your shooting/drawing, just something that I feel is important for anyone shooting any bow type. They need to feel confident about what they are doing. It's like watching two people hammering in nails. One is a first timer with a hammer; the other is a carpenter.
You won't need to watch the nail going into the wood or bending before it gets in, to know which person is the first time user. You can tell on the back swing, yes?
Your war bow draw is full of confidence, as you would expect. I also think it would be a good style to adopt for a recurve archer, but with a lighter draw and possible a slightly slower finish... but not too much.... that would look like hesitation.
 

Del the Cat

Well-known member
Hi Del.
Something to add to our discussion that has been missed out so far.( not surprising really as it isn't 100% on topic)
When I watch the two types of draw that you demonstrated; one is full of confidence and the the looks as if you fear the bow might break.
That is not a criticism of your shooting/drawing, just something that I feel is important for anyone shooting any bow type. They need to feel confident about what they are doing. It's like watching two people hammering in nails. One is a first timer with a hammer; the other is a carpenter.
You won't need to watch the nail going into the wood or bending before it gets in, to know which person is the first time user. You can tell on the back swing, yes?
Your war bow draw is full of confidence, as you would expect. I also think it would be a good style to adopt for a recurve archer, but with a lighter draw and possible a slightly slower finish... but not too much.... that would look like hesitation.
Yes... not only do you need confidence in the bow... you need to know you can draw it. Once you've done it once, it's substantially easier the next time!
I also find it easier with an arrow on the string, some people find the opposite!
Del
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Hi Del, yes you are right about knowing you can do it. I say it's like jumping a stream as kids, we rarely fell in because it was too wide. We knew before we jumped.
It is strange about drawing with an arrow on the bow. I always fine it easier. I think it's because i have decided to shoot the arrow so just get on with it. Without an arrow, I feel like I am doing something "different" so the draw is less natural.
I wonder if those who find it easier to draw without an arrow, are perhaps a little worried about their shooting?
 

KidCurry

Well-known member
I'm a bit confused about this comparison :) If I wanted to plough a field I would use a powerful shire horse. If I wanted to win a race I would use a fast thoroughbred race horse. I would not use a race horse to plough or a shire to race. Isn't this simply a case of horses for courses?
 

Del the Cat

Well-known member
I'm a bit confused about this comparison :) If I wanted to plough a field I would use a powerful shire horse. If I wanted to win a race I would use a fast thoroughbred race horse. I would not use a race horse to plough or a shire to race. Isn't this simply a case of horses for courses?
That which is most efficient use of musculature is surely still the most efficient use of musculature regardless of the type of bow?
Del
 

KidCurry

Well-known member
That which is most efficient use of musculature is surely still the most efficient use of musculature regardless of the type of bow?
Oh... I'm not saying the high draw is not more efficient, I'm saying it is not one that best suits target archery. It was used a lot when I started back in the early eighties, but run into trouble for being dangerously high, but definitely more efficient.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
I think the " high draw " problem was that the bow arm was too high and the draw elbow too low so the arrow was over elevated at the worst time for an accident. Raising the draw elbow and lowering the bow arm compared to 80's gives a much more level draw yet still effective.
I think Del's ideas are right, but the target archer needs to have a chance to aim a litttle longer, so they don't fall into the habit of releasing as the sight is " passing the gold".
 

KidCurry

Well-known member
I think the " high draw " problem was that the bow arm was too high and the draw elbow too low so the arrow was over elevated at the worst time for an accident. Raising the draw elbow and lowering the bow arm compared to 80's gives a much more level draw yet still effective.
I think Del's ideas are right, but the target archer needs to have a chance to aim a litttle longer, so they don't fall into the habit of releasing as the sight is " passing the gold".
Maybe okay for a long bow but if a 50lb+ recurve was to let this fly I'm not sure it would land within the 150yds overshoot. But as i said, definitely an efficient draw method. Good technique is also very important for an efficient draw. :)
1585746834581.png
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Maybe okay for a long bow but if a 50lb+ recurve was to let this fly I'm not sure it would land within the 150yds overshoot.
I was really saying the high bow arm and low draw elbow was dangerous and the high draw elbow with equally high bow arm, gave a level arrow and far less dangerous.
 
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