[English Longbow] The arrows or the archer?

DavidH

New member
I've been shooting very badly recently, with arrows flying everywhere except where intended. For sometime now I've been using 5/16 shafts with small fletches and following a disastrous shoot last weekend I started to go back to basics. I shot from about 5 yards without worrying about aim, with a short draw length and started to step back slowly increasing my draw length until I reached a normal draw. I tried to be totally relaxed and if you like was shooting instinctively. I started to concentrate on anchor position and drawlength and an archer I have respect for told me all looked good, but by the time I was back to 15 yards the groups were going haywire again.

As it happens, I'd taken some old 11/32 arrows with nice big fletches on. As soon as I swapped to these arrows, the groups tightened up considerably, and at 20 yards I started to group to about 8 inches diameter, not always in the gold, and with the odd arrow going astray but at least my form was back to what I was getting a couple of years back.

I know that large fletches will group better at short distances but the difference is so significant I wonder if there could be other reasons, maybe the shaft size also.

We talk a lot about instinctive shooting in these forums and I was totally focused on the gold throughout. I don't know how many arrows I shot but I was there a good 4 hours and about 2 of those totally on my own, without having to put up with the 60s club banter;) My last arrow, before being called away by a phone message was smack in the middle, a lovely way to end.

Although I was aware of the arrow point with every shot, it was the gold I concentrated on and dare I say, naturally compensated for a low or high arrow. I wonder if I was shooting instinctively;)
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Hi David,
I have been discussing things like this for some time now with a longbow archer at the club.
We are coming from different directions, if you see what I mean, because he sees me shooting compound and thinks that I am a typical compound archer. I see the similarities in what we do, he sees the differences.
I am just fascinated by shooting in all its forms and don't see the point in "taking sides". Just get on and do what style of shooting you want!
But,to answer your question, I would say you are adjusting deliberately for high and low arrows. You may not have needed to stop and think about how much to adjust, possibly because you already know that from experience.
It does seem that "instinctive" and "automatic" get mixed up at times.
If all arrows went low, I would think it would be an instinct to try to do something to improve on that. I would imagine it would be instinctive to raise the bow, in order to raise the arrow.( but perhaps we have to learn that the bow needs to be raised.....yet beginners seem programmed to raise the sight if arrows go low, as if following an instinct that tells them to raise the bow)
 

DavidH

New member
Hi Geoff, Its back to the old throwing a ball thing, if you throw it too short you'll adjust the next throw. Its very easy to think of it like that. But what about the arrows? I really only mentioned the instinctive thing because Id been involved in the other thread and the question of 'archer or arrow' came up in my shooting yesterday.
 

WillS

New member
Interesting post! It's funny how going back to basics in many walks of life tend to help out! I find the same happens with playing an instrument - don't know if you encounter this with percussion but if I'm finding it hard to dig into an improvisation using advanced techniques or theory, going back to basics and gradually adding bits helps far more than jumping in at the deep end so to speak.

As an "instinctive" archer (or so I believe - who knows?!) this comment jumped out at me as something to discuss:

Although I was aware of the arrow point with every shot, it was the gold I concentrated on
Now to me, that isn't instinctive, as you're consciously aware of where the arrow point is. When I shoot, I cannot see the arrow at all. It's obviously right there in front of me, but in terms of relationship to the target or background or foreground etc, I am clueless. I have tried focusing on it, or at least bringing it into view while maintaining a focus on the target and everything goes horribly wrong!

I'm sure there are all types of variation to "instinctive" shooting - perhaps some consider what you describe as instinctive, whereas others may consider that any conscious knowledge of arrow or bow location prevents it from being truly instinctive.

What size fletchings were on the 11/32 arrows?
 

DavidH

New member
WillS thanks for your reply, as ever concise:) It occurs to me that I may be frightened of not having some reference, especially at the moment when the field is so dry, and the grass is a bit too long. Every arrow that misses the target loves to slide along in a desperate effort to ensure it doesn't get found.

Fletchings on the 11/32 arrows are around 4 inches and quite deep.
 

DavidH

New member
How can you shoot "with a short draw length" ?

Surely, for consistent shooting, your draw length is your draw length.
I said I started with that. Its pretty damn difficult to miss at 5 yards. I've mentioned in another thread that I broke in a new bow this way and was advised to by the bowyer. I was just going right back to the start, just pulling back a bent piece of wood with a string on it. I'm sure when we made a bow out of bamboo as kids we didn't have a clue what draw length was.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Going back to basics..................! Does that assume that we have developed something new over time that isn't that good? Have we picked up bad habits accidentally or possibly tried things deliberately, to find they "work"( initially) so adopt them as part of our form....... perhaps too quickly and without enough testing?

It seems to me that eliminating the arrows from the list of things that cause large groups is much easier when we know the arrows are well matched to each other and the bow.
When the arrows aren't well matched what can the archer do about that? I think it is called "clocking " the arrows( aiming off to compensate for arrow errors)
My guess is , the archer would need to be shooting well to gain anything from that exercise.
So, David, you have regained your form. Shoot the fat and thin arrows using that form and see which help you more; and by how much.
Then you will know if it is the archer or the coach... sorry ,arrows!
 

DavidH

New member
Going back to basics..................! Does that assume that we have developed something new over time that isn't that good? Have we picked up bad habits accidentally or possibly tried things deliberately, to find they "work"( initially) so adopt them as part of our form....... perhaps too quickly and without enough testing?

It seems to me that eliminating the arrows from the list of things that cause large groups is much easier when we know the arrows are well matched to each other and the bow.
When the arrows aren't well matched what can the archer do about that? I think it is called "clocking " the arrows( aiming off to compensate for arrow errors)
My guess is , the archer would need to be shooting well to gain anything from that exercise.
So, David, you have regained your form. Shoot the fat and thin arrows using that form and see which help you more; and by how much.
Then you will know if it is the archer or the coach... sorry ,arrows!
I think, but I dont know, that most longbow archers start of just relaxing into a simple form of archery accepting its limitations. Then they hear about some incredible scores or watch other longbow archers achieving much better scores than themselves. I've never used the ring on a bow, but I know someone who uses it very effectively. We all ask each other what method of aiming we use and we start trying all sorts of things, knuckle, point, ground markers etc.. We get deep into arrows trying this fletch that fletch, this and that weight of point and so on.

I once, and only once, shot 7 arrows at 20 yards and they all went in the gold. People stood there in amazement and asked me how I did it. If only I knew because I've never repeated it:)

I'm still waiting to know which arrow is best for short distance. Someone put me out of my misery please. Have others noticed such an incredible difference in grouping between two sets?
 

ghound

Member
Dave, i use the same arrows indoors at 20yds as i do at 60yds, poc 5/16 125gn points and 2 1/2' feathers. At 60yds i will score similar as i do on a 40cm face indoors, to be nerdy 6.83 per arrow.
I still use 5/16 on my 53lb bow with 2' feathers, and i don't feel the need yet to change.
 

DavidH

New member
Dave, i use the same arrows indoors at 20yds as i do at 60yds, poc 5/16 125gn points and 2 1/2' feathers. At 60yds i will score similar as i do on a 40cm face indoors, to be nerdy 6.83 per arrow.
I still use 5/16 on my 53lb bow with 2' feathers, and i don't feel the need yet to change.
I usually have too ghound, that's why I'm so amazed at the difference It used to be the thing indoors for recurve archers to use big fletched arrows but that seems to have dropped away. They used to use big fat allies too:)
 

WillS

New member
It's probably no help at all, but might be worth mentioning that ive been experimenting with spine recently, and by that I mean totally ignoring it! I went through a total mixed bag of arrows the other day, all different spine, weight, and fletch size and the difference in pure accuracy was negligible. Arrows that should have been way too stiff grouped beautifully and arrows that should have been perfect (including ones I had made myself for the bow) were slightly less accurate.

This either means that something was happening to my form between sets of arrows, or far more likely that the arrow itself is less crucial than the archer on the day. I'll do the same tests tomorrow and compare. I think way too much thought is put into getting the perfect matched arrow when an off day or warmer muscles can completely affect the results.
 

DavidH

New member
Had a very interesting day yesterday. Got another archer to watch my form and tried out 3 different sets of arrows. Looks like its more about form than the arrows in the end. Ended up getting 7 out of 9 arrows on at 60 yards!
 

Simon Banks

Active member
The truest thing I've ever heard about archery/equipment is..

"It's not the equipment, it's the Archer"

Although (pardon the pun) since so much of archery is mental it's no great surprise that so much car and attention goes into the equipment...
 

WillS

New member
Had a very interesting day yesterday. Got another archer to watch my form and tried out 3 different sets of arrows. Looks like its more about form than the arrows in the end. Ended up getting 7 out of 9 arrows on at 60 yards!
That's exactly what I've been saying all this time.... :p

The three different sets you tried - were they totally different, as in different spine as well, or the same shafts but various fletch shape/size and point weight?
 

DavidH

New member
No it's the equipment that goes in the car! sorry Simon;) Yes you are right. We ended up yesterday saying " if you anchor is the same, if your draw length is the same, if your aim is the same and you hold the bow steady enough (and of courses if there's not a howling wind), the arrows have to go in the same place, give or take a bent arrow or some dodgy fletchings.
 

Simon Banks

Active member
It's funny I shot a number of arrows the other day different lengths, weights and flight sizes.. I was off form and they went everywhere..
Shot them today and they didn't stray from the gold..

The only deference was inside my head.. ;-)
 

ghound

Member
It's funny I shot a number of arrows the other day different lengths, weights and flight sizes.. I was off form and they went everywhere..
Shot them today and they didn't stray from the gold..

The only deference was inside my head.. ;-)
Alas i fear another lost soul.........
 

Simon Banks

Active member
So had my longbow for nearly three weeks now.. Been using my old 35/40 lb spine arrows with it which appear to be swimming..
Arranged a visit to Carol archery and her conclusion after shooting many arrows is I need 45lb arrow spine and I would agree they did fly "truer" to the target. My form is fighting the 50lb bow so I think I'll revisit this once I am on top with my technique. But looks like 5/16 45lb spine with 100gr pile.

Now there was no doubt that the 45lb arrows were faster and easier to put on target but I've shot my practice arrows so much I could do the same with them..

Hope this helps.
 
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