Tonkin bamboo arrows

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Mark in England

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Yew Selfbow,
Yes I am supplying bamboo arrow shafts. I've been selling them on Ebay for a few years now. To be honest I've sold more outside the UK than I have here which seems a shame. It has started slowly but interest is picking up now as more people try them, more people witness how good and durable they are. Look up bamboo arrow shaft on ebay and you'll find me at Mahill Archery. Most of my shafts are 33 inches long. I have some left in Chinese Arrow Bamboo, but most of my stock is Tonkin. I can supply most spine rating. I'm also selling Tonkin in weight matched sets, some as close as 3 grains difference between 12 shafts! I have just imported some 1 metre (39 inch) tonkin shafts that are 9 to 10mm diameter and will spine out to 80-85# to 115-120#. I'm spine rating and checking these now. They do look very nice, I'm having to reject fewer shafts these days.
Berny,
If you intend to put taper fit points/nocks on I don't think it much matters where the node is. I would just drill the end of the bamboo to accept the plug, glue the wooden plug in and then cut the taper.
If you intend to cut a self nock this can be done anywhere if you bind just behind the nock. The binding will prevent any splitting. A self nock just behind a node is stronger and in this case you can get away without binding if you prefer.
Regards,
Mark
 

Mark in England

New member
I?d like to respond to a few points raised in this thread. This is a personal statement and I am quite happy that some may feel and think differently.

Wood is not by definition exclusively from a tree. Wood is defined by the Royal Horticultural Society and many other respected sources as a hard fibrous cellulose based plant material that comes from trees, shrubs and other plants. According to national experts at the RHS, woody materials can be found in trees, shrubs, herbs and also other plants including bamboo. This is why NFAS accepts bamboo as a material for arrows and bows. Some bamboo grows so big and so tall that if you cut it down and it fell on you it would certainly feel like a tree had hit you! It?s a complex area as hardwoods are from completely different families from softwoods, which are completely different from palms etc. If GNAS accepts softwood cedar shafts as wood, and also accepts hardwood ash shafts as wood even if they come from a completely different plant family, it is hard to understand why the wood from Bamboo is not also accepted, especially if it is accepted as wood for use in bows.

It has been suggested by a non-UK archer that I am selling bamboo shafts at two and a half times the cost of getting them direct from China. This is simply not correct. A hundred shafts direct from China to the UK would cost at least ?100 plus import duty and VAT and handling charges, plus the delay of shipping, plus the fact that you need to buy ?100 worth, plus the need to sort the shafts and reject those that have unfortunately slipped past the sometimes different Chinese view of agreed quality.

I am committed to providing good quality shafts at a competitive price here in the UK and elsewhere. I check my shafts and aim to provide what people need, quickly and efficiently. I check my shafts, reject those with flaws and hand spine them. I accept the risks involved with international shipping, quality, import duty, and spend hours of my time in quality control. I supply replacement shafts or refunds where there is a problem with a shaft. I currently supply a dozen standard Tonkin shafts for about ?20 including P&P, which is no where near the prices alleged. This is less than the vast majority of commercially available pine or cedar shafts. I recently supplied a dozen deluxe shafts carefully checked, spine and weight matched within 3 grains including P&P for ?24 which is still less than the prices alleged (BUT WITH SIGNIFICANT QUALITY VALUE ADDED!).

I do have an exclusive agreement with Tiger for the UK. I helped him set up his business in shafts and provided considerable technical advice. I was his first customer and have stuck by him through significant quality improvement and at some cost to myself. I have invested in well over 10,000 shafts. I would not be able to provide the service I provide to UK archers if I was competing directly with my own supplier. Basic business reality.

Sorry, to go but I felt I had to address the suggestion made.
 

squinky

New member
Have been reading the previous posts with interest. I bought a couple of sets of bamboo shafts from Mark. I've had them quite a while now. I really like them and have been impressed how they have taken the abuse that I have given them {field shooting}. They seem very robust. I don't break anywhere near as many, though the aim has obviously improved slightly. I like the feel of them too. Was at a field shoot today and shot the same four arrows all day - dug them out of the ground, trees, rotten logs, but came home with them all in one piece. Result.
Anyway I'd better not give them too much of a glowing review - you might quote me again Mark! .............So, I'll stop now.
I found making them up easy enough, the odd one a bit fiddly, but not too bad for splintering if you took your time. I have started to put inserts into the nock end of my latest batch, though I don't know why as I can't get the nocks off any of my previous set that I have broken.
The price I thought was reasonable. I would certainly order more.
 

duffy

New member
Dunno about the GNAS view of wood v. grass, but as someone replied if bamboo is ok for bows .....

....but it doesn't matter to me anway, I shoot 'em for field at local NFAS courses or NFF
& noone's ever objected
....having said that, I haven't shot them in a competition, might try next year.

Brian (Kupris) if you're reading this, as a GNAS field man, what do you think?

if you shoot nfas, was you in h/t or afb class?

with bamboo arrows as they are not wooden, think you might have to be in the barebow class?

only as a friend at my club shot afb, he is now using bamboo and had to shoot in the barebow class
 

Berny

Active member
if you shoot nfas, was you in h/t or afb class?

with bamboo arrows as they are not wooden, think you might have to be in the barebow class?

only as a friend at my club shot afb, he is now using bamboo and had to shoot in the barebow class
AFB class. I've only shot 1 NFAS course with (Butsfield Bowmen - several times) & I think they are well aware of the fact I shoot them - with no complaints. I've not shot a comp. yet, hope to by next year.

Up in here in the Borders we have mostly Northern Field Federation (NFF) shoots, as I understand it an altogether more relaxed (in pedantry, but not in safety) approach to field archery -again, no complaints from anyone here.

Lastly & I would hope logically, I don't think a bamboo arrow would compete (is in the same class as) with an alloy or carbon which it would have to, to shoot in barebow - do you?
It's more like a combined: AFB(bow)+ Primitive(arrow) class - perhaps there's a new style here? LOL!!!
Should I propose it as an amendment to the rules?
 

Chidokan

New member
My interest comes from Japanese archery, and have a couple of bamboo arrows for practise shooting... construction is interesting, they have overfitted piles, are drilled and filled at each node, presumably to allow moisture to escape whilst heat treating, and have bound knocks and verys small fletchings. Range is only 2-3 meters, so it's about form not accuracy for this type of arrow.
ASAHI KYUGU [KYUDO]YA ( ARROWS )
If you look at both chinese and japanese 'normal' arrows rather than the makiwara types, the traditional points have long tangs and are bound behind the head. This may give some weight for heavier bows I guess... take a look here to see some close ups of
I asked NFAS about japanese stuff and they wrote back to tell me it counts as a primitive class if bamboo, if thats any help...

Mark,
if you have some at 40" I would like to try a few. (One of the guys at the club has seen some around and has promised to get me some, but keeps forgetting...)
 

Berny

Active member
One bud nipped, is there another ?

Let's not start that 'bamboo is a grass and not a wood' malarky.

Using bamboo arrows does not stop you shooting in AFB.

Andrew Knott
General Secretary


This is from NFAS
Thanks for nipping that in the bud
....don't suppose the GS of GNAS is out there reading this & cares to give their view of the world?
 

bkupris

Supporter
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American Shoot
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Berny

As far as I can tell this needs clarification from GNAS (field). It is being worked on at the moment.
 

Quadratus

New member
Thanks Provins - my feelings exactly.

I get fed up with people simply parroting ?bamboo is not wood ?.etc, etc? without any credible references or authorities. If anyone can find such a thing ? and I don?t mean Wiki -anything, or ?Gardeners Question Time?-type sites, but solid, credible scientific sources - I will be very interested, but until then lets get on with our shooting.
 

Yew Selfbow

Active member
Not that it makes any difference but......

Bamboo is a member of the true grass family Poaceae and thus is a Monocotyledon and so the vascular cambium produces no secondary xylem (wood). The only wood producing plants are select gymnosperms and the only angiosperms which produce wood are Dicotyledons and thus bamboo and palms do not produce wood .... is that credible enough for ya ... it just happens to be my sons PhD subject
 

bkupris

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As far as GNAS is concerned here is the answer I have received...

"Although bamboo is not strictly wood, it is a grass.

When the Operations Committee approved the rule change to GNAS Rule 206(a)
to incorporate their own definition of a longbow, (latest update 2006)
they agreed to bamboo being used in the construction, thus they accepted the
principle that bamboo should be treated as wood. Thus arrow shafts can be made of bamboo.
However, they need to be made very carefully as when turning bamboo in a lathe, to
make it parallel, it tends to splinter and thus weaken the shaft."

So yes it is allowed :)
 

Quadratus

New member
Not that it makes any difference but......

Bamboo is a member of the true grass family Poaceae and thus is a Monocotyledon and so the vascular cambium produces no secondary xylem (wood). The only wood producing plants are select gymnosperms and the only angiosperms which produce wood are Dicotyledons and thus bamboo and palms do not produce wood .... is that credible enough for ya ... it just happens to be my sons PhD subject
The information about secondary thickening is, of course perfectly true - I first learned it in about 1965, even before I studied botany at London University, and long before I completed my own PhD. Unfortunately, when it comes to defining "wood", your statement simply assumes that wood=secondary xylem, and that is precisely the question in point.

But hey ho - I've had my say and as far as I'm concerned that's an end to it. I'm off to play with my bows and arrows. Good shooting to all.....
 

Mark in England

New member
Chikodan, I now have some nice 39.5 inch tonkin shafts. Are these long enough for you?

GNAS have a very strange idea of how a bamboo arrow shaft is produced. The bamboo is cut, dried, straightened, heat tempered, straightened again and then lightly sanded to smooth the nodes and remove the outer skin. They are never put on a lathe. As the woody fibres that give it it's strength run down the tube there is no grain run off which makes them stronger than a cedar shaft, less likely to break and safer.
 

Mark in England

New member
Yew Selfbow, I've got 80-85#, 85-90#, 90-95#, 95-100#, 100-105#, 105-110#, 110-115#, 115-120# and a very few 120# plus.

I'm still spine rating them. Have some on ebay auction at the moment to see how they do.

Regards,

Mark Hill
 

Chidokan

New member
Hi Mark, yes I am interested... can you pm me about either popping down and getting some, or sending a cheque? Will take a dozen and see how they turn out. Spine seems not to apply to these although they do use two sizes of shaft, so i guess the smaller ones will do as a trial. You do not get a lot of paradox occurring when shot off a yumi, so maybe its not so critical...
 

blakey

Active member
As far as GNAS is concerned here is the answer I have received...

"Although bamboo is not strictly wood, it is a grass.

When the Operations Committee approved the rule change to GNAS Rule 206(a)
to incorporate their own definition of a longbow, (latest update 2006)
they agreed to bamboo being used in the construction, thus they accepted the
principle that bamboo should be treated as wood. Thus arrow shafts can be made of bamboo.
However, they need to be made very carefully as when turning bamboo in a lathe, to
make it parallel, it tends to splinter and thus weaken the shaft."

So yes it is allowed :)
That's good that GNAS is sorted. Does anyone know what the FITA position is on this? Cheers
 

Berny

Active member
What about shooting (tonkin) bamboo arrows?

So, thanks to all who have shared some of the politics & biology of (tonkin) bamboo arrows.

....now, what about experience of shooting (& making) them)?
For example:
- what kind of bow shot off with what results (accuracy, distance) compared to using other (wood) arrows?
- spined or unspined? Same spine as wood for the same bow?
 
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