Two rounds in a day?

aquatoo

Member
If I shoot two different rounds on the same day at a club practise day the handicap tables state that all rounds shot by members shall be recorded by the club records officer. It also says that every time an archer improves his score his handicap shall be recalculated in the usual manner.

Question is, can they both then be utilised in calculating my new handicap, assuming that the second one shows an improvement.

I know that the Rules of Shooting state that only the first round in a competition may be submitted for UK record qualifications. It doesn't mention club, county or region so does this rule apply to club shooting or not.
 

X10

Member
i think, and i'm probably wrong, but if they are different round at different distances then you're fine.
i think i've shot a Portsmouth in the morning and and fita 18 in the afternoon and they both counted.
there'll be people that know a lot more about it than me though!
hope you get an answer X10
 

mk1

It's an X
Supporter
If you shoot two GNAS rounds in one day then only the first one counts. If you shoot two FITA rounds under FITA rules (ie WRS) on one day then both count or if the 2nd round n the day is WRS FITA it will count it will also count.

there is another thread on here somewhere about what counts outdoors with regards to shopping up full FITA rounds etc.
 

grimsby archer

New member
If you shoot two GNAS rounds in one day then only the first one counts.
ROS 304(k) states
An archer may only compete once, the first time of shooting, in any event regardless of
the class of equipment used, the number of sessions in the event and whether the event
extends over more than one day.
so a double is a double (one time of competing) not 2 singles and anything after the first time of competing doesnt count.

Question is, is shooting a score for handicap "competing"?

Handicap instructions 1(d) states that
rounds shot must be shot under GNAS rules of shooting at a Club Target Day or meeting organised by GNAS or FITA affiliated body
so I'd say yes, if its shot at a CTD then its competing, even if you're only competing with yourself.
 

Furface

Moderator
Supporter
I would disagree with GA - old disagreeable me. A competition must necessarily involve more than one party (even if they do not turn up!). But what is the point of restricting handicap calculations in this way? They are only there as a means of measuring yyour own progress. Even if you then use your handicap to enter for a [real] competition, if you have reduced your handicap you are only harming yourself.
Personally, I think this whole "mustn't shoot two rounds in one day" blather is utterly daft - I guess someone thought it a good idea once and no one relevant has ever actually thought about it since. [Gosh I get grumpy after midnight]
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
An archer may only compete once, the first time of shooting,
To me, this sounds as if the rule is saying you can't have a second attempt at the same "competition." So, if there were two sessions and you entered for the morning and made a mess, you can't enter an afternoon score if it's better.If the competition is a double round, you have to shoot a double round to enter. Shooting four rounds would not pass.( everyone would be going home by the time you started the second time through)
 

britvette

New member
I think that for handicap and classification purposes , it is fine to shoot and count two rounds - as has been said , handicap and classification is only a measure of your performance against yourself . For a tournament though , only the first round will count on the grounds that if (for eg.) a double Portsmouth is shot , you would have shot 6 doz sighters before starting your second round . The same would apply for Club or County records in that only the first round would apply.
 

aquatoo

Member
I know that you cannot shoot two rounds in competition but I am referring to club practise days.

To compound the argument there is nothing to stop you from practising at home for as long as you like before you turn up to shoot a competition. Granted it won't be on the same ground but that, unless it's windy in one place and not the other, won't make any difference.
 

grimsby archer

New member
I know that you cannot shoot two rounds in competition but I am referring to club practise days.
At the risk of becoming repetitive, I repeat, according to the handicap scheme instructions: for handicap purposes, you can only use rounds shot shot under GNAS rules of shooting at a Club Target Day or meeting organised by GNAS or FITA affiliated body.
Rounds shot at club practise days should NOT be submitted for handicap purposes.
 

Furface

Moderator
Supporter
At the risk of becoming repetitive, I repeat, according to the handicap scheme instructions: for handicap purposes, you can only use rounds shot shot under GNAS rules of shooting at a Club Target Day or meeting organised by GNAS or FITA affiliated body.
Rounds shot at club practise days should NOT be submitted for handicap purposes.
And where is the "subtle) difference defined. What is a "Club Target Day"? IMHO, that statement covers all shooting time as arranged at the club (and, if that is 24/7 so be it), but not setting up a boss in your back garden and shooting alone. Again, who is it harming if a more relaxed approach than that is taken?
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Furface said:
Again, who is it harming if a more relaxed approach than that is taken?
Rules can get tedious at times; but where would we be without them? We'd make our own ,on the spot, I guess, if the need arose.
As for the handicap issue here, it seems to me, that if the handicap score was going to be used by the archer to take part in an out of club handicap shoot; then the handicap needs to be gained after following the same rules as all the others involved in the shoot.
We put on a handicap shoot for our own members. We get our handicaps worked out from rounds we shoot at the club or away at tournaments. I can't imagine anyone worrying about how the scores were shot so long as it was a round and the score was correct.
 

aquatoo

Member
At the risk of becoming repetitive, I repeat, according to the handicap scheme instructions: for handicap purposes, you can only use rounds shot shot under GNAS rules of shooting at a Club Target Day or meeting organised by GNAS or FITA affiliated body.
Rounds shot at club practise days should NOT be submitted for handicap purposes.
I used the word practise loosely, they are in fact club target days.
However, as I read the rules of shooting, the situation is unclear in that the stipulation for a single round a day is under a heading that is for UK record purposes.

If I stick to shooting two FITA rounds - which is fine according to the rules - they can, presumably, both be submitted.

In reality I don't really care whether or not I can submit two in a day for handicap purposes but an argument has arisen in my club on the subject which I would like to settle.

As the Rules of Shooting appear to be unclear I was seeking the definitive answer. What I seem to be getting is repeated dogma.

Is there a paper, separate from the Rules of Shooting, which covers handicap administration that I can download?

Please tell me exactly where in the Rules of Shooting it states that no more than one round per day can be submitted for handicap purposes. While we are at it, do the GNAS rules override the FITA ones at club target days or does it depend upon the rounds being shot. Under GNAS rules we are allowed six sighter arrows only while under FITA rules we can have a timed practise session.

Seems to me that the Rules of Shooting need a revamp. So do the Administration Procedures. The safety distances for spectators, for instance, are at odds with the requirements of the insurers. The Admin states yards and the insurance documents give metres!
 

aquatoo

Member
I just looked and apparently it isn't possible to download a copy of the Handicap scheme instructions as GNAS don't own the copyright. How on earth did GNAS ever get themselves into a situation where they don't own their handicap tables? Beggars belief.
 

Tobytoolbag

New member
Fonz Awardee
I just looked and apparently it isn't possible to download a copy of the Handicap scheme instructions as GNAS don't own the copyright. How on earth did GNAS ever get themselves into a situation where they don't own their handicap tables? Beggars belief.
There are a multitude of threads dedicated to this subject, but I have to agree with you...

I believe it's only the actual handicap tables that are subject to copyright by the guy who worked 'em out in the first place, Mr D.Lane. The rules for administering 'em are GNAS copyright, and our club has reproduced 'em here
 
Last edited:

aquatoo

Member
There are a multitude of threads dedicated to this subject, but I have to agree with you...

I believe it's only the actual handicap tables that are subject to copyright by the guy who worked 'em out in the first place, Mr D.Lane. The rules for administering 'em are GNAS copyright, and our club has reproduced 'em here
The rules are the same as those printed in the handicap tables.

I had a very interesting conversation with the GNAS guy in charge of the admin of handicaps. While the rules are not clear (and should be revised) it is accepted that club target days will be run the same as at a competition.

GNAS

Six sighters only, on the ground the round is to be shot on. (You may practise as long as you like somewhere else.)
Only one round to count for records - including handicaps shot on THE SAME GROUND. (If you shoot two rounds on different fields (grounds) both will be eligible).


FITA
Timed practice
As many rounds as you like all to count on the same ground if you wish.

Interestingly FITA round distances may be shot in any order - so if you want to you can shoot 90/70/50/30 and for the second round reverse the order. If a FITA round is to be shot over two days either the two long distances or the two short will be shot on one day and the other two on the next.
A FITA round may be shot over two days and a double FITA may be shot over four days. (Talk about leisurely!).

My own club has two shooting grounds that are about three hundred yards apart so if members are desperate to submit more than one qualifying GNAS round in a day all they have to do is move from one to the other. Argument settled.

Thanks to everyone who replied - it all helped.
 

Furface

Moderator
Supporter
Rules can get tedious at times; but where would we be without them? We'd make our own ,on the spot, I guess, if the need arose.
As for the handicap issue here, it seems to me, that if the handicap score was going to be used by the archer to take part in an out of club handicap shoot; then the handicap needs to be gained after following the same rules as all the others involved in the shoot.
We put on a handicap shoot for our own members. We get our handicaps worked out from rounds we shoot at the club or away at tournaments. I can't imagine anyone worrying about how the scores were shot so long as it was a round and the score was correct.
Geoff,
I couldn't agree more about rules, but, in this case, they are virtually non-existent. What constitutes a club target day? Now the "chap in charge of handicap administration" (who on earth is that?) has been quoted in this thread as being definite - and defining such a day as akin to a competition. But, in the absence of a written definition that is only his opinion - and, I dare say, would not be the case in a large number of clubs.
And, even if the rule is defined somewhere like that, it is pointless. I take your point about consistency, but there are only two possible outcomes to using a second round in a day to adjust handicaps:-
1) The second round is below or equal to the archers handicap level, so there is no change. In the forthcoming handicap competition no one is affected
2) The second round is above the archers handicap level, so his handicap improves. In the forthcoming handicap competition, the archer is therefore less likely to win. In fact, those who would benefit are those archers whose clubs insist on only using the first round.
IMHO, it comes down to the basic purpose of a handicap system - to give a standardised measure of an archer's performance, for the archer (or his coach) to use. If an archer chooses to shoot two rounds in one day, he should be able to use that measure - because it doesn't affect anyone else in the slightest.
To me, the more critical point is that, yet again, the rule book, while apparently clear, is based on assumptions (Club Target Day?) and a misunderstanding. The whole thing needs a thorough re-examination, and a re-writing by people who are a) current archers at all levels and b) able to write clear and exact English.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Hi Furface, Thanks for the info.
I guess most of the thinking behind two rounds in a day is based on the fear that some will shoot two rounds because they want to try again to reach a better score; when their first was seen as "not good enough".Our club shoots rounds for an internal league that we put on. Because the range is narrow people shoot in small groups over the weekend days. If I make a mess of the first round, there is nothing to stop me from shooting another the same day, or the next day.Well, the club rule is that we submit the first score, but I could get away with it if I was so inclined.Having two attempts,or even more, would be unfair on anyone who shot the round just once.If you can shoot the round again, why not allow bad shots to be taken again?? If there is no advantage to be gained by shooting two rounds, what purpose does the ban serve?
Take this to a ridiculous extreme and imagine the shooting is taking place close to the Pole. Shoot a round before midnight and shoot again just after.It isn't officially two in one day; but you have tried again for a better score.
 

Furface

Moderator
Supporter
I like that idea - next year's Ironman? And, for leagues or any other competition at Adel it is the first round of the day, whatever happens - because that is defined in the rules for competitions. And, IMHO, the ban is purposeless for handicap purposes.
Happy Christmas!
 

aquatoo

Member
Geoff,
"chap in charge of handicap administration" (who on earth is that?) .
His name is Neil Dimmock. He is an international FITA judge and a GNAS judge. He was very knowledgable and informative and suitably decried the lamentable state of the rule book.
 

aquatoo

Member
Hi Furface, Thanks for the info.
I guess most of the thinking behind two rounds in a day is based on the fear that some will shoot two rounds because they want to try again to reach a better score; when their first was seen as "not good enough".Our club shoots rounds for an internal league that we put on. Because the range is narrow people shoot in small groups over the weekend days. If I make a mess of the first round, there is nothing to stop me from shooting another the same day, or the next day.Well, the club rule is that we submit the first score, but I could get away with it if I was so inclined.Having two attempts,or even more, would be unfair on anyone who shot the round just once.If you can shoot the round again, why not allow bad shots to be taken again?? If there is no advantage to be gained by shooting two rounds, what purpose does the ban serve?
Take this to a ridiculous extreme and imagine the shooting is taking place close to the Pole. Shoot a round before midnight and shoot again just after.It isn't officially two in one day; but you have tried again for a better score.
I probably didn't make it entirely clear when I started. When I said two rounds I didn't mean the same one twice. I meant for instance a St. George followed by a Short Metric or similar combination.
 
Top