What do you think would be the best way, to help new bare bow archers......?

Hawkmoon

Member
There are a lot of good archers and coaches out there who are willing to help and give advice but not many that have much experience of bare bow. I get told by lots of new or new to bare bow archers that their coach is good and helps with the basics of archery and spotting problems with form and release but when it comes to specific bare bow related issues such as anchor or bow setup they are not very knowledgeable (this is in general not everyone).
So the question is, what is the best way forwards, do we need to have regional (county) level clinics where once a month or every eight weeks people can meet up shoot and get some help and advice in a quite informal way or do we need something more structured?
 


Kerf

Supporter
Supporter
There are a lot of good archers and coaches out there who are willing to help and give advice but not many that have much experience of bare bow. I get told by lots of new or new to bare bow archers that their coach is good and helps with the basics of archery and spotting problems with form and release but when it comes to specific bare bow related issues such as anchor or bow setup they are not very knowledgeable (this is in general not everyone).
So the question is, what is the best way forwards, do we need to have regional (county) level clinics where once a month or every eight weeks people can meet up shoot and get some help and advice in a quite informal way or do we need something more structured?
The regional clinics idea is a good one. I’d give my eye teeth for a good local bare bow coach. One of our three club coaches has done level 2 (the others just level 1) and he admits there was nothing on the course specific to bare bow.
I’ve learned the hard way, though trial and error, on-line video coaching (like Rick Stonebreaker) and obtained much help on this and other forums which are bare bow specific. But nothing beats a hands on experience with some one who knows what they’re talking about.
 


LionOfNarnia

Supporter
Supporter
What I find 'amusing' about this is that I left my old club (Tynedale) because it was too barebow!

I was usually the only recurver there, and the coaches did nothing to improve me. However the 2 teenage sons of a dude from the Easter beginners course both won junior medals at the recent Killingworth Open.

Regional clinics for ALL disciplines would be a damned fine idea denk ik.

- But since when do the regions ever do other than pay lip service to the needs of 'ordinary' club shooters?
 


geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
As a coach who doesn't shoot barebow, my views could be out of step with what is required, so my comments are just me thinking aloud.
Finding out how much more a "normal " coach needs to know in order to help with barebow archers, could be helpful.
How much work would it take, for a barebow coach to create a help sheet/book for Olympic style coaches, for them to adapt their coaching?
Different anchor points is part of teaching archery these days. Three fingers under and finger in corner of mouth is taught on some beginners' courses. Isn't that the beginnings of knowing about the different bare bow options?
String walking is an extension of three fingers under, is it not? That isn't a huge step out of a coach's comfort zone. Perhaps the setting up of the bow would require some changes from the one used for olympic style, but how different would that be? Is it a matter of having a different nocking position and/or tiller changes?
If the "normal" coach understands how much more they will need to know, perhaps they would feel better about taking on the extra work.
 


Kerf

Supporter
Supporter
Tiller for bare bow needs to be understood by Oly coaches. Some bare bowers, as I am sure many here know, shoot zero or even negative tiller - something two of my three club coaches simply cannot comprehend. Mind you, one of them thinks raising brace height increases arrow speed!
Nocking points can be fiddly and centre shot too as can tuning the bow for string walking. One of the Oly coaches has actively tried to persuade me that the only way to aim in bare bow is to gap shoot. He doesn’t tell his Oly archers to aim with their sight pin under the gold but he’s happy to tell us bare bowers to aim our arrow point in the outer red! He does not understand how deadly accurate string walking can be if the bow is properly tuned.
Also, I think, face walking is anathema to them. They don’t seem to be able to get past the “under the chin, under the chin” mantra.
I’m confident my experience is not unique in clubs up and down the UK.
As I mentioned above, the Level 2 coaching course ( according to our L2 coach) doesn’t include anything that is bare bow specific, so exactly where/what is Archery GB’s bare bow coaching policy? I suspect the answer to that nowhere/none.
 


geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Kerf, I see exactly what you are getting at and perhaps this is something akin to some archers hating compounds.
I know people in archery who will have nothing to do with them. It's as if they wish they didn't exist.
Some of this is brought on by fear of the unknown; they know nothing about them so dismiss them so they don't have to accept that their knowledge is limited.
I see far more similarities than differences between longbow, recurve and compound bows and how they are shot. The differences are details; the similarities are the building blocks of all shooting forms.
Tiller is understood by Oly coaches, I suspect. What the differences are when shooting barebow and string walking is just an extension of that understanding. If the initial understanding is limited to a stated tiller difference of say 3mm because that is all they know and want to know, then I suspect they are not too willing to accept change. I know archers who still talk about string contact being "centre of nose and chin" . No variations allowed!
I go back to what I said perviously, how much extra does the coach need to learn, in order to coach barebow? My guess is that it is not that much; but it is enough to require some expert input and some willingness to learn.
I have posted enough times in barebow section to have some knowledge of sting walking and face walking and tillering for such. I am not as confident about what I know in those things, but there are plenty on here who could help me out I am sure.
Longbow archers use gap shooting and ground markers, so many clubs have access to people who understand that.
Tillering for barebow string walkers has been mentioned on here many times. There will be a not too complicated rule of thumb that could be written down to help archers and coaches alike.
We have had a real upsurge in the popularity of barebow and longbow archery where I shoot. I have updated myself to be able to help them out when they need help. It hasn't been difficult, AND I am not belittling barebow archers when I say say that. I am sure there are more things I need to learn.... but that is normal; and to be expected.
 


Whitehart

Well-known member
I think there is a desire for humans to try and make archery complicated - we pull a string back and let go - the hard bit is doing it the same each time.

If you understand properly how a bow works (rather than just cherry picking) then it does not matter what discipline you shoot many of the principles are the same. Especially in terms of how a bow is set up and shooting form - just allowances need to be made for different anchor positions and the effect on the bow and arrows.
 


geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Hi Andrew, I think you are right.
It isn't rocket science; kids of 8 can shoot pretty well.
The differences are fairly well described
 


Kerf

Supporter
Supporter
Kerf, I see exactly what you are getting at and perhaps this is something akin to some archers hating compounds.
I know people in archery who will have nothing to do with them. It's as if they wish they didn't exist.
Some of this is brought on by fear of the unknown; they know nothing about them so dismiss them so they don't have to accept that their knowledge is limited.
I see far more similarities than differences between longbow, recurve and compound bows and how they are shot. The differences are details; the similarities are the building blocks of all shooting forms.
Tiller is understood by Oly coaches, I suspect. What the differences are when shooting barebow and string walking is just an extension of that understanding. If the initial understanding is limited to a stated tiller difference of say 3mm because that is all they know and want to know, then I suspect they are not too willing to accept change. I know archers who still talk about string contact being "centre of nose and chin" . No variations allowed!
I go back to what I said perviously, how much extra does the coach need to learn, in order to coach barebow? My guess is that it is not that much; but it is enough to require some expert input and some willingness to learn.
I have posted enough times in barebow section to have some knowledge of sting walking and face walking and tillering for such. I am not as confident about what I know in those things, but there are plenty on here who could help me out I am sure.
Longbow archers use gap shooting and ground markers, so many clubs have access to people who understand that.
Tillering for barebow string walkers has been mentioned on here many times. There will be a not too complicated rule of thumb that could be written down to help archers and coaches alike.
We have had a real upsurge in the popularity of barebow and longbow archery where I shoot. I have updated myself to be able to help them out when they need help. It hasn't been difficult, AND I am not belittling barebow archers when I say say that. I am sure there are more things I need to learn.... but that is normal; and to be expected.
All good points and well made. Out L2 coach is a willing and helpful and is quick to grasp the essential differences between Oly v BB set up etc. I think you and he are on a par in that you both want to know all the nuances of archery which you can translate to helpful advice to all types of archer. Posture, form, technique are pretty standard basics which all coaches - and dare I say, most experienced archers - should be able to help with. It’s the “tricks of the trade” where they lack and I can’t help but think that some BB specific coaching for the coaches by Archery GB is needed. That way, if Hawkmoon’s regional clinics ever come to pass, at least we’d (hopefully) be getting advice from someone who knew what they were talking about.
 


geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Nice post. I think your ideas are sound and that Hawkmoon has the right idea too.
In the meantime, because clinics require setting up etc etc, why not make a crib sheet. Tricks of the trade will be well shared out amongst BB archers; passing them on should be no real problem.
I often think we miss chances to use the internet to the full. One good crib sheet, like some of the stickys on here and things have taken a step forward. Why get twenty people into one room, with all the travelling time and expenses that involves. Why wait till a venue is found and adverts sent out and returns received? Those who want to find out will make the effort. BUT the internet could catch far more supporters and get the job done with no travelling expenses or time wasted in traffic jams. Good use of the internet would allow two way communications, just like face to face sessions.
 


LionOfNarnia

Supporter
Supporter
Compared with certain other 'pastimes' I'm involved in, archery is generally pretty bloody poor at utilising the sharing tools t'web offers.

- and I'm sure it's mostly attitude not ability.
 


geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Compared with certain other 'pastimes' I'm involved in, archery is generally pretty bloody poor at utilising the sharing tools t'web offers.

- and I'm sure it's mostly attitude not ability.
Yes, I think you are right. There is a lot of stuff that archery could make use of with specific recipients in mind. Two way things; not a page from a book.
 


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