what is it about carbon foam?

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
The idea of "forgiveness" or the lack of it seems a bit confusing to me, if some equipment can offer forgiveness and others can't.
Is this a matter of defining what we mean for different sports or something about the way the equipment does its job, or what?
 


Whitehart

Well-known member
Kevlar did make it into Limbs, I have a set of SF ultimate pro, and they are Carbon, Glass and Kevlar.
From what I understand they were a rebranded version of a Win & Win limbs, but can't remember which ones.
The design was the original inno's although Sebastien did change the construction from the inno's and they were cheaper so maybe the Kevlar helped to keep the costs down as I don't remember the inno's having Kevlar.
 


Whitehart

Well-known member
My idea for forgiveness is that the arrow still goes in the gold even if I am sure that the sight pin was way off. Or is it just my training of the sub conscious mind through shooting loads of good arrows, that knows how to shoot my bow better than my conscious mind, taking over in that split second the clicker goes click and putting everything right.
 


geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Thanks for that. I would say that was your body/mind working together; but what about equipment having forgiveness?
I could imagine that having no fletchings would spread out your groups. If adding fletchings makes things better, is that a sort of forgiveness as it reduces the damage caused by an inconsistent loose?
Is it possible to make a short list of things that could becorrectly described as "more forgiving" ? And another list of things that are described as forgiving but are untrue.
 


KidCurry

Active member
My idea for forgiveness is that the arrow still goes in the gold even if...
I would say it's more a case of ease of setup and criticality. In the same way a mini A series engine is easier to set up and more forgiving on timing than a cosworth engine. I think in terms of risers there is not a lot of difference between top level and bottom level but limbs tend to be far more critical the faster and lighter they get. My SF fibre limbs are far more tolerant of arrow selection than my X tours. Indoors my SFs shoot very well more than capable of shooting 280 worcesters barebow. The X tours do not tolerate string walking as much. They get louder and will punish a poor release more than the SFs.
In the same way my glass fly rod will happily lob a poorly timed back cast where my fast tip rod will punish it remorselessly.
 


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geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
A series engine is easier to set up and more forgiving on timing than a cosworth engine.
Can I just explore that a little. Does the A series engine tolerate a range of timing settings without getting too upset; or does it show little change when set up well compared to not so well? Does the Cosworth run much better when set up precisely, compared to not quite so close to ideal?
Is it good that it can produce really good results with a bit of work; or better to have mediocre results but no option
of finding a better set up?
 


Whitehart

Well-known member
Thanks for that. I would say that was your body/mind working together; but what about equipment having forgiveness?
I could imagine that having no fletchings would spread out your groups. If adding fletchings makes things better, is that a sort of forgiveness as it reduces the damage caused by an inconsistent loose?
Is it possible to make a short list of things that could becorrectly described as "more forgiving" ? And another list of things that are described as forgiving but are untrue.
Re equipment - the correct spine arrows fly so much better and tend to go where you want more so than the wrong spine bodged to fly straight. The bodged to fly straight need all the help (compromises) they can get and the vanes have to work very hard. if the vanes do little normally, then when you need them for a poor shot they have something left to help you out.
 


geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Yes, I agree with that. What I was getting at is that fletchings do a job that could be described as a forgiving job. They reduce our mistakes; ones that would easily show up if we shot bareshafts. So forgiving could be applied to fletchings and perhaps bigger ones could be described as more forgiving than the really tiny ones.
But that is only one possible example. There will be other things that are described as more forgiving that are in truth, nothing of the kind.
I think this is what Andy! was getting at.
 


Rik

Supporter
Supporter
Ah, the F word :)
The only definition I've come across that works for me, is that it's about reducing the extremes on your range of errors. That is to say, finding a setup which doesn't magnify errors (don't think it's possible to find one which reduces errors, but read on). The other angle on this is that it's possible that some combinations of kit work better for you. Maybe the grip is shaped so you find it easier to be consistent, that kind of thing. That's not exactly the traditional view of "forgiveness", because it's specific to a person rather than being generalised and it's not so much about "forgiving" errors, as preventing them...
 


chuffalump

Member
My idea for forgiveness is that the arrow still goes in the gold even if I am sure that the sight pin was way off. Or is it just my training of the sub conscious mind through shooting loads of good arrows, that knows how to shoot my bow better than my conscious mind, taking over in that split second the clicker goes click and putting everything right.
I've had that. I'm never sure if I like it though. If I release when the pin is offset, would I rather it hits where I'm aiming? Or the gold anyway.
 


geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
I guess that effect is the body making instant correction, that we never notice. A sort of helpful version of a rapid collapse of the bow arm that is unseen,too.
 


Rik

Supporter
Supporter
Just out of interest; what settings/set up could magnify our errors?
The obvious one is having a setup that's edgy enough that you get intermittent contact. A lot of the time it's clean, but get things just a little more wrong than usual and your fletchings clip the rest/button...
 


Rik

Supporter
Supporter
I've had that. I'm never sure if I like it though. If I release when the pin is offset, would I rather it hits where I'm aiming? Or the gold anyway.
I have a theory about that... The sight is just a reference, we use it to establish the right line. But once we've done that, it won't matter where we see it. It's the line of the shot that determines where the arrow goes. It's not like with, say, a rifle, where there's a hard line between the back/front sights. With an archer, that line is flexible, so it's possible to have your rear reference drift a little while you are still in line.
Problems arising: we're very visual. We see that sight drifting and we try to correct it, even if the line is actually still good.
Better would be to not have it drift, of course, but, hell...
 


geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Cheers,Rik.
If I take that issue in the other direction and take some action to avoid the contact, (whatever action that is) once the contact is avoided is there any point in going further with more of the same change? Or is contact a simple on/off situation?
 


geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
The sight is just a reference, we use it to establish the right line. But once we've done that, it won't matter where we see it. It's the line of the shot that determines where the arrow goes.
You have confused me with that idea.I think I understand the idea of a right line; but if the sight moves off the gold, other aspects of the line will need to move to counter that,yes?For example, if the sight moved right compared to the gold, the string line would need to move right to compensate.
 


Whitehart

Well-known member
Just out of interest; what settings/set up could magnify our errors?
For recurve
The wrong spined arrows is IMO the biggest, next limb tips not straight.

Form errors the release (not using the back and having the drawing hand not going straight back along the jaw) weak bow arm.

We are always told by somebody????? that a stiffer arrow is more forgiving, I have a different approach, I tune for a "very slightly" weak set up. A poor shot slows down arrow speed so makes the arrow fly stiffer. The result at the target is that it drifts wider (A gold could be a red/blue 70m). Good shots always go where I want them to go, by tuning my button "very" slightly weak the poorer shots do not drift as wide (Gold to red). My analysis of my shooting would suggest for a round I still shoot more poorer shots than perfect shots.
 


geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Yes, really wrong arrows are a bad start to your shooting. Poor form doesn't help either. I guess "forgiving" if it ever happens, is all about forgiving our mistakes. We don't need forgiving if we shoot perfectly well.
Do you shoot arrows that are slightly soft compared to what might be called ideal; or do you shoot ideally spined arrows and adjust the button/draw weight etc. so the results show bareshaft on the right, not left?
 


Rik

Supporter
Supporter
You have confused me with that idea.I think I understand the idea of a right line; but if the sight moves off the gold, other aspects of the line will need to move to counter that,yes?For example, if the sight moved right compared to the gold, the string line would need to move right to compensate.
Well, say for example you tilt your head a little a full draw - sight "moves off line" even though the line hasn't moved...
 


Whitehart

Well-known member
Yes, really wrong arrows are a bad start to your shooting. Poor form doesn't help either. I guess "forgiving" if it ever happens, is all about forgiving our mistakes. We don't need forgiving if we shoot perfectly well.
Do you shoot arrows that are slightly soft compared to what might be called ideal; or do you shoot ideally spined arrows and adjust the button/draw weight etc. so the results show bareshaft on the right, not left?

Hi Geoff yes - ideal spined arrows and adjust as you suggest.

I shoot the correct spined shafts for me, my interpretation of this is at 18m the fletched and a balanced unfletched bareshaft are the closest to each other. This allows very fine tuning with the button spring tension to move the bareshaft very slightly weak (millimetres) for me LH archer to the left of the fletched arrow. Then go out to 70m and make minor adjustments as necessary.

BTW for RH archers the low left is a misunderstanding of Jay Barrs tuning methodology before Seoul Olympics, published in the Glade in the early 90's. A case of it sounds logical - good arrow clearance so we will go with that but JB was LH.
 


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