X10 are so weak

autura

New member
Easton recommend 100-120gr point, who recommend 100gr? just some guy called George Tekmitchov, you know the international archery technical consultant, product developer, past USA World team member, Easton Employee and designer of the X10 :)
 

dottorfoggy

Member
Unless they recommend 100-120, isn't my fault to don't know that guy that I never heard before.
My mate shoot the 140gr tungsten on X10 with 1330+ on fita... So?
 

Timid Toad

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If you have a very light spine, common sense would suggest you should look to use a lighter point. If you need a heavier spine, you'll need a heavier point.
 

Stretch

Active member
I’m just regurgitating so things might have moved on:
  • the x10 was designed to be shot with 100gr (90 to 110 was the design range.
  • the 380 was the stiffest shaft at the time
  • the heavy point was intended mainly for compound use and was a reaction to market demand
  • *all* the Koreans shoot 100gr (may not be true anymore)
  • A lot of top recurve shooters who tested 140 went back to what they shot before.
  • Point weight on an x10 has much less effect than most other target arrows (sorry I had this explained but my ballistics is not up to the explanation)
Personally I think the heavy point is a fad. I don’t see any performance benefit in wind drift.

But on the subject of arrow wear here is what a set of shootable but nearly used up x10s look like and these shoot OK

848E56A6-EF6D-4F1A-B066-D7C894581F8E.jpeg
Here is how much they have worn... new 410 at the same shaft location:

860D821B-A69C-4922-8CD3-5404F295573F.jpeg
Heavily used x10

7A95E2E3-594B-46E9-9030-263508E73365.jpeg

And here are some generations of steel x10 points (two 110gr and one 100gr)

18F3E5FB-8EFC-4484-B676-AA9767471FE5.jpeg
MK1 point at the bottom, current 110SS at the top. <— I said MK1 point but it isn’t. MK were very soft, so this must be a MK2!

Your arrows should not be breaking. You have a problem. It is not tuning or form.

Stretch
 
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KidCurry

Well-known member

but also mentions problems with 140grain points on x10s
 

dottorfoggy

Member
I did a close inspection on my last arrows, they are good and straight, the only noticeable wearing is where they touch the plunger, I can feel it with the finger.
So let's see, if the weather is kind, to test them with the 100g point. Because today we had a snow storm and the indoor range is close from today :(
 

Timid Toad

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I would be concerned if I had wear where my X10s touch my plunger, either visible to the eye or detectable by touch.
 

Cereleste

Supporter
Supporter
I’m just regurgitating so things might have moved on:
  • the x10 was designed to be shot with 100gr (90 to 110 was the design range.
  • the 380 was the stiffest shaft at the time
  • the heavy point was intended mainly for compound use and was a reaction to market demand
  • *all* the Koreans shoot 100gr (may not be true anymore)
  • A lot of top recurve shooters who tested 140 went back to what they shot before.
  • Point weight on an x10 has much less effect than most other target arrows (sorry I had this explained but my ballistics is not up to the explanation)
Personally I think the heavy point is a fad. I don’t see any performance benefit in wind drift.

But on the subject of arrow wear here is what a set of shootable but nearly used up x10s look like and these shoot OK

View attachment 8080
Here is how much they have worn... new 410 at the same shaft location:

View attachment 8081
Heavily used x10

View attachment 8082

And here are some generations of steel x10 points (two 110gr and one 100gr)

View attachment 8083
MK1 point at the bottom, current 110SS at the top.

Your arrows should not be breaking. You have a problem. It is not tuning or form.

Stretch
You wouldn't happen to know how far up that difference in diameter extends on your arrows, and how "nearly used up" manifests itself? 0.17mm lost corresponds to 1-2 spines weaker at the tip going by the ACC numbers, though it would need considerable length to be enough to affect groupings I suppose. For my 620 ACEs, I have 0.12mm difference at the tip between almost new and 8 year old shafts, the difference decreases linearly until 15cm from the tip, aftwer which they're equal. In terms of volume lost it's about 1.5grains and maybe 10% of a spine number, so about 1cm bareshaft difference at 70m which far too small for me to notice.
 

Cereleste

Supporter
Supporter
I did a close inspection on my last arrows, they are good and straight, the only noticeable wearing is where they touch the plunger, I can feel it with the finger.
So let's see, if the weather is kind, to test them with the 100g point. Because today we had a snow storm and the indoor range is close from today :(
What material is your plunger, and is there wear visible on the tip? Where is the wear and how long does it extend? Is it noticeably flatter? What do you see/feel that tells you it's worn there? Something's off - either the force of the arrow on the button is very high, the shaft has abrasive material on it, or the plunger is too abrasive. Or the wear you see is caused by something else.
 

mbaker74

Supporter
Supporter
I shoot x10's with tungstens. On the couple of occasions I have hit the stand with them, the arrows have been absolutely fine and pull out, usually leaving the point in the wood as I tend to use Bohning Cool flex glue rather than the Easton hot melt.
I have cracked x10's shooting into straw targets with stainless points though, the shank is too long for hard targets and magnifies the forces into the shaft, causing it to crack... I have never seen one break like yours have though.
 

dottorfoggy

Member
What material is your plunger, and is there wear visible on the tip? Where is the wear and how long does it extend? Is it noticeably flatter? What do you see/feel that tells you it's worn there? Something's off - either the force of the arrow on the button is very high, the shaft has abrasive material on it, or the plunger is too abrasive. Or the wear you see is caused by something else.
Is 10 cm long +/- 1mm wide, 5cm after the point, I assume is the contact area with the plunger.
I have tested also if where a contact with the rest, but no extra contact was detected.
You can see it looking sideway to a source of light, I can barely feel it.
I'm using beiter plunger, medium spring at half setting, black insert.
 

Stretch

Active member
You wouldn't happen to know how far up that difference in diameter extends on your arrows, and how "nearly used up" manifests itself? 0.17mm lost corresponds to 1-2 spines weaker at the tip going by the ACC numbers, though it would need considerable length to be enough to affect groupings I suppose. For my 620 ACEs, I have 0.12mm difference at the tip between almost new and 8 year old shafts, the difference decreases linearly until 15cm from the tip, aftwer which they're equal. In terms of volume lost it's about 1.5grains and maybe 10% of a spine number, so about 1cm bareshaft difference at 70m which far too small for me to notice.
Noticeable difference is within the first 10cm of shaft. Worst is maybe the 5-10 mm after the point which actually dips to 4.53mm. Basically the bit that gets scrubbed by a straw boss when the arrow is initially being stopped.

These exhibit a very slightly weaker reaction than a much newer *good condition* set. But it is small enough to be compensated for with the button. There is quite a lot of variation across the remains of the set but they all shoot roughly the same. (Not as good as a newer set but close).

As the wear is in front of the node and the arrow’s main initial bend is in the middle I doubt that the point wear has much effect on the overall spine and reaction. Might affect the harmonics a bit more.

If I had any doubts over the wear in a set I’d plot them at 70m. If they seemed worse than expected I’d replace. I wouldn’t bin them because they measured a bit less.

2p

Stretch
 

Stretch

Active member
SNIP ...
I have cracked x10's shooting into straw targets with stainless points though, the shank is too long for hard targets and magnifies the forces into the shaft, causing it to crack... I have never seen one break like yours have though.
Agreed, I have never seen them break like this, that is why I think something else is up. Mind you, when I shot steel points they were 90-110 and I shot them at 100gr. So I have never shot with a shank this long.

Stretch
 

Stretch

Active member
Is 10 cm long +/- 1mm wide, 5cm after the point, I assume is the contact area with the plunger.
I have tested also if where a contact with the rest, but no extra contact was detected.
You can see it looking sideway to a source of light, I can barely feel it.
I'm using beiter plunger, medium spring at half setting, black insert.
If you are averaging 325 at 70m you do not have a tuning problem sufficiently bad to damage an arrow.

If you really do have a weak shaft (52#+ on your fingers?) then you could get a little wear. Unusual to see it so consistent as usually we break nocks, refletch etc and the relative position changes (I don’t know about others but I always make sure that this happens). If the position was inconsistent I’d be suspecting that there could be metal objects in the boss.

If it is button wear then you’d be wearing out plunger tips. How much shorter is your tip when compared to a new tip? The shaft is much harder than the Beiter tip so the tip would wear first.

This wear makes it even weirder. Are you sure it is actually wear and not just abrasion of the polished surface?

Stretch (again)
 

dottorfoggy

Member
The wear is in the same spot on all the arrows.
I shot 44# at the finger, shaft is 32" + point lenght with 380 spine
I'm still using the same tip of the plunger in the last year, I have to measure if there is any difference

I forgot, I broke 2 arrow by Robin hood, 1 at 50m 6 for ends and 1 at 30m with 3 for ends, the other 4 hitting the wood frame. I check the arrows every single time I shoot them.

By the way thanks to every one joining and helping for this! I really appreciate :)
 
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Stretch

Active member
At those specs you should be T10 which is a 410. I can believe that you might get a 380 to tune as you’re borderline weight group... but not tune weak. Unless you’re shooting some crazy ass hyper-recurve in which case all bets are off.

I shot a 32.25” including point 410 with 47# all be it with a 90s efficiency level Hoyt Carbon Plus limb. And they always tuned on the stiff side.

At the moment I shoot a 450 at 32.25” with a tungsten point (inclusive) off Velos at just under 40# and it is way stiff. Maybe 15cm at 18m with a soft button. (Hopefully I’ll get my big boy limbs back soon but my elbow is old and wrecked) :rolleyes:

Another 2p

Stretch
 

Timid Toad

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At those specs you should be T10 which is a 410. I can believe that you might get a 380 to tune as you’re borderline weight group... but not tune weak. Unless you’re shooting some crazy ass hyper-recurve in which case all bets are off.

I shot a 32.25” including point 410 with 47# all be it with a 90s efficiency level Hoyt Carbon Plus limb. And they always tuned on the stiff side.

At the moment I shoot a 450 at 32.25” with a tungsten point (inclusive) off Velos at just under 40# and it is way stiff. Maybe 15cm at 18m with a soft button. (Hopefully I’ll get my big boy limbs back soon but my elbow is old and wrecked) :rolleyes:

Another 2p

Stretch
Yes, I'd tentatively suggest you are getting a very consistent whack from an over stiff arrow (particularly with a light point) which is causing a weakness resulting in eventual breakage.
 
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