X10 are so weak

olis

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I know you're all at a much higher technical level, but do you think doing a lot of shooting in the cold could be a part of the problem? It looks like brittleness and micro-cracking might be a root cause.
 

Timid Toad

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I've shot in sub zero without problem, and I also (as do a lot of other archers) use X10s for clout, shooting them into the ground time after time and have never broken one like that.
 

dottorfoggy

Member
I went outside yesterday to test the 100g point, not a big difference left/right, 2/3 mm gained in the sight.
They fly a little bit faster and I can see that have a little bit less "fishing" at the first meters.
In the next day I want to try again ace's and decide which one I will keep for the next year island games. Hopefully If everything going right, i can have the opportunity to be part in on of the world Cup, depends on this and next summer results
 

Stretch

Active member
Sounds about right. Between 110 and 100 I had about (very roughly cos it was a long time ago) 8cm vertical and less than that horizontal at 70m. So you’re dropping 20gr so should see a bit more.

With 120gr I get low arrows... they seem to be shooting OK but every now and then a low flier on what felt like a good shot. With 100gr I don’t get it. (Plenty of bad shots low :cautious:)

Why you need such a stiff arrow I don’t get. But you could buy x10 350 if the 380 really is too stiff. Something you do is off the charts compared to “typical”.

Thinking about the structure of your arrow at the 32”+ length - does mean that the end of your point is still in the weakest part of the shaft - where it is thinnest. They’re pretty much parallel at that point. So it *could* give some unusual results. So have you thought about cutting as short as you can and using a longer nock like a Beiter 4.5 or 4.5 pin to lengthen from the back?

Stretch
 

dottorfoggy

Member
I'm actually using the 4.5 nocks
Shaft + nock is 32" long
Total lenght with point is 33", 1/8"
The point is right on the edge of the riser at full draw, I need maybe 0,5" more long shaft with ss point and maybe 1" with the tungsten.
I have to shoot more and take some training just for tuning and find the right spot for the brave, I need also a new grip, the original have a crack on, probably I'm going to buy the low one.
Here the indoor target material, also showing last grouping at 200 shoots
FB_IMG_1585845959092.jpg
 
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Stretch

Active member
Question: those bosses look like the old cellotex that were very popular here for field. But they were held together with threaded metal rods that goes through the layers and quite far in from the edges. Definitely not hitting a metal rod? (Because that does cause arrows to break just like your pics) Horrid stuff and very hard when new even if you don’t hit the metal. Also quite often had non-fibrous rock hard bits in the layers. If it is Strammit then they are even harder. And what is behind the matt? With that much arrow on this side there is a lot on the other side!

Why do you say shafts are weak they look pretty much within your group size.

If your arrows are that long you should quit archery and take up basketball :eek:

Not much help!

Stretch
 

dottorfoggy

Member
Bosses are made by this small wood layer, 20cm deep without any metal rods, they pressed by an adjustable system on the top to keep them together.
On the back, I have a foam boss because after few weeks with my training they start to wear and arrows can go through.
After a good tuning I can manage to have the bare shaft together with other arrows, but is a little bit forced, I can't decrease pounds on the bow right now. Need to test the bare shaft with the 100g point.
With the easton base tuning, bare shaft hit the red on the right

Unfortunately at age of 16 I have an accodent my knee ligaments and i prefer to don't do any sport to avoid more damage on them. :(
I have shoot for a short period, I shoot 34", to learn to expand my back tension.
 

Stretch

Active member
When you say “can’t decrease the pounds on the bow right now” that implies that you *could* reduce your draw weight? Why not? That would seem the logical thing to do? Or do you mean that you have your riser at the minimum weight setting and to lower the weight would mean new limbs?

I actually don’t believe that maximising your draw length is ever the right thing to do, nor does it encourage back tension in its own right. It does encourage push and pull in your arms and that means arm tension and often finger and wrist tension. Clicker should be set in a zone where you have good control that is usually at least an inch off your max (varies hugely from archer to archer though). Otherwise my arrows would be nearly as long as yours!

Only thing that promotes back tension is disciplined form work and most likely a rigid formaster type device IMHO.

:poop: Yup racket sports and poor medical advice screwed my knees in my teens, hence all the arrow flinging... #bustedKneesMeToo

Stretch
 

dottorfoggy

Member
Was a short explanation on a work that my coach did to me, the biggest problem was my bow shoulder, too high and neutral. So he came with this to force and to feel a new position.
FB_IMG_1585932005458.jpg
This was 1 and half year into archery, now I have a gap between the arrow and my shoulder.
I'm still working to improve btw :)
And yes, my limbs bolts are all the possible way out. But it work well :)
 

Cereleste

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Your bareshafts are centered/slightly left, you're shooting right handed, and you say they're weak, is the end in the picture representative?
What do you mean by "forced"?
Bareshaft in the red isn't necessarily bad, I gather from others that in group tuning it's common to end up with the bareshafts somewhere in the red on either side. Are your scores significantly different (consistently by ~10 points out of 600) when you have the bareshafts in the middle vs in the red on one side or the other?
 

dottorfoggy

Member
@Cereleste Picture is showing the result of the tuning, with a easton standard tuning the bare shaft land to the right, also pointing to the right, having the point into the red and the noch in the yellow. I still have to test with the 100g point.
I feel forced now for center shot position, the point right side is on the string left side, medium spring on plunger at 3/4 of his preload, brace close to 10", max recommended is 9,5",but with my 32"+ draw lenght it have some e tre stored energy at the release.
@Rog600 i don't think so, I use an electric gun set to 150/200 c°, is the point where the glue start to melt, I never over heated any arrow in this process

Yesterday btw i was outside to test more, and in 200 shoot with 15+ m/s i did a bad shot landing on the frame, nothing happened!
I ended the train session with some 54 points end
So I think that the 120g point is too long inside the weak part of the shaft causing the problem I encountered in the last week training. I think I will probably leave X10 until I will buy them with the tungsten point, short inside to use the X10 as they where designed.
If I'm right, the 370 ace, uncut will fit my drawlengt and poundage.
Tomorrow I will test them and see

Some ends
20200405_125554~2.jpg
 
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Whitehart

Well-known member
No tape on the back of the bareshafts - you are comparing apples and pears in terms of spine and FOC.
 

dottorfoggy

Member
I have shoot with the tape on the back without any difference feedback, that picture was taken by unfletced shaft. I did also a test before with tape on the back..
 

Stretch

Active member
Just to be clear... when you are putting the points in you are holding the point in your fingers and heating the hot melt to the point that it just melts. If the point is too hot to hold in your fingers it will damage the shaft. If you are not using Easton Hot Melt I hope you have spec’d a suitable low temperature high strength hot melt. Not all hot melts are created equal. And not all “carbon arrow” hot melts are suitable.

2p

Stretch
 

dottorfoggy

Member
We have been using the gas pro hot glue in the last year since I started archery and it didn't damege any arrow like that :unsure:, the shop where I buy stuff follow top italians archer they use the same glue.
And yes, warming the glue and then aplly that to the point (y)
Wich one are you using??? 🤔
 

Stretch

Active member
You need hot melt that works at the right temperature to not damage the al to c bond. I know Easton is the right thing so that is what I use. Always - for 20+ years or so now.

You also need a bond that is the right rigidity between the point and the shaft. So I have seen arrows destroyed using things like epoxy which is too rigid. This is right for some shafts but wrong for ac. Some hot melts are too rigid IMO.

I can’t speak to the Gas Pro hot melt - not something I have experience or knowledge of. Others may be using it but are they also using long points or tungsten? Rigidity would be less of an issue with shorter points.

Stretch
 

Timid Toad

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Yup, I'd always stick with Easton hotmelt, and always heat the point while holding it in my fingers - if I can't hold it the point is too hot - then straight into a mug of cold water once the arrow is assembled to take the heat out of it again.
 

Stretch

Active member
I don’t quench because I know it wasn’t too hot to begin with. It was also suggested at one point that the rapid cooling could in its own right damage the shaft but for the life of me I can’t remember if that came from GT or someone else or as is common on the Internet a nobody else. Probably back in th Sagi BB.

If the point is finger hot you’re fine.

Stretch
 

dottorfoggy

Member
I'll buy the easton hot melt to give a try ;)
Today went a good test evening on my old ace's, 430/400/370
10 ends with all the spines
120grain point for all
All fetched land in the gold at 30mt
430 bareshaft on red/blue right
400 bareshaft on 8 right
370 bareshaft on 8 left
Tape on bare shaft
Standard easton tuning
3mm shorter than my actual x10
370 seem the way because I can have 0.5" longer shaft.
I think to use X10 next time with 350 spine, longer and tungsten point.
 
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