X10 tungsten point options

mbaker74

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Hi All,

looking at getting a new set of X10's as my current set restarting to look past their best. Considering moving from steel to tungsten points and noticed that Merlin do three options

1, Easton own points at ?15.76 each
2, Decut tungsten points at ?9.74 each
3, Merlins own "ballistic super coat" tungsten points at ?13.86 each. (And have a lovely gold coloured coating on the point....)

All are 100/110/120gr points.

There is a review of the Decuts on the Merlin site stating that at 120gr, the points tend to snap off within the arrows, but this is the only review I have seen on them....

Does anyone have any feedback, good or bad on the different options? I normally use all Easton components, but if I can save ?24 on the Merlin version thats worth having....

Cheers
 

mbaker74

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Unfortunately Arrowsmith have stopped manufacturing points for X10's, no idea why.....
 

Libris

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I?m not up in the technicalities of machining tungsten but given the eye watering prices of the Easton and Merlin points and the anecdotal fragility of the Decut ones I?d hazard a guess that it?s... tricky. On the other hand, I?d say cutting tungsten rod and mating it to a steel head is a lot easier but has its own challenges - like the head not always staying attached to the body. Which to be fair is pretty detrimental for most things, not just arrows :) I never had any problems with the Arrowforge X10 points but did have some with the ACE ones - they seemed a bit big and kept getting caught in my hessian fronted target.

From reviews I?ve seen the Easton tungsten points are the highest quality with the Merlin ones being marginally softer but in a way cooler gold colour.
 

bimble

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unless you shoot on straw, or really just want them, I'd stick with the Stainless Steel points and keep the cash in your pocket!
 

mbaker74

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That's the problem Bimble, some of our local shoots that I like to go and play in, do still use straw bosses..... I think even some of the Yorkshire champs shoots still use straw.
 
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Deleted member 7654

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Seems like false economy to me...
Do they improve fit form or function of the arrow? If not then it's a waste of money.
Del
 

bimble

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Seems like false economy to me...
Do they improve fit form or function of the arrow? If not then it's a waste of money.
Del
no... they're designed to help protect X10's when being shot into straw (especially new straw bosses), where the longer stainless-steel points might take a bend and subsequently damage the shaft. In the words of their designer, 'why shoot 21st century arrow technology into 14th century target technology?'

If you shoot into foam targets, there's no need for tungsten points.
 
D

Deleted member 7654

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no... they're designed to help protect X10's when being shot into straw (especially new straw bosses), where the longer stainless-steel points might take a bend and subsequently damage the shaft. In the words of their designer, 'why shoot 21st century arrow technology into 14th century target technology?'

If you shoot into foam targets, there's no need for tungsten points.
I don't think that argument actually holds water. If there is sufficient force to bend a stainless steel point, then a more rigid point will just transmit the the force to the point & shaft joint and be more likely to cause a fracture.
It smacks of a problem creation exercise and revenue collecting scheme.
Mind I'm perfectly willing to be wrong (and eat suitable humble pie) if there is actually any evidence of the problem or the solution.
The words of their designer sound like he is a marketing man more than a mech eng.
Del
 

Timid Toad

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Long shanks and long points such as those in X10s taking a bend is a known problem. It also has been observed in Cartel triples.

Newer X10 SS points are made of a slightly tougher steel so seem less prone to this. As it's only a bend, the forces aren't enough to damage an A/C shaft. But of course after that your arrows don't fly straight. Two options, continually check and change all your stainless points or get a material that is more robust. The tool steel used for Nanos is very good (and the ordinary steel points and inserts are the longest of any on the market at present, I believe) but tungsten is better again. They are a fit and forget option if you are worrying about bending when shooting into any material.

I've picked up several sets and part sets second hand on the cheap and check them on grainscales before use. They're always well matched, which is more than I can say for brand new X10 SS points. I like tungsten, they also give you more options when tuning, particularly when like me you're using second hand X10s when shaft length can be a little outside your control.

It's the law of diminishing returns of course, particularly if your set up and form is closer to the bent stick variety than something that has the capability of putting every arrow on the X if you get your act together.
 

Libris

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I don't think that argument actually holds water. If there is sufficient force to bend a stainless steel point, then a more rigid point will just transmit the the force to the point & shaft joint and be more likely to cause a fracture.
It smacks of a problem creation exercise and revenue collecting scheme.
Mind I'm perfectly willing to be wrong (and eat suitable humble pie) if there is actually any evidence of the problem or the solution.
The words of their designer sound like he is a marketing man more than a mech eng.
Del
Well, they are trying to sell them after all so some marketing hype is to be expected.

But, in an X10 the stainless point is much longer than the bullet headed tungsten one giving it significantly more torque on the inside of the shaft if the point starts to go off course from straight. It's the length of the steel extending from the front that is the cause for concern. Of course, you could exceed the stress limit of the shaft with a tungsten head - as I've discovered, hitting a wall illustrates this particularly well :)
 
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Deleted member 7654

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Consider humble pie to have been consumed...
Mind I still think there is probably a cheaper solution to the problem in terms of a more appropriate grade of steel which would flex and return rather than bend, although, maybe it would need heat treating which would reduce the cost advantage.
Del
 

Rik

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Consider humble pie to have been consumed...
Mind I still think there is probably a cheaper solution to the problem in terms of a more appropriate grade of steel which would flex and return rather than bend, although, maybe it would need heat treating which would reduce the cost advantage.
Del
Yes... CX offer tool steel points on their skinny shafts. Priced between ordinary stainless and tungsten. Still not cheap... Easton haven't done that.

It doesn't take a wall to break an X10 at the point junction. A hard straw boss and a compound will do it well enough.
 

Libris

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Yes... CX offer tool steel points on their skinny shafts. Priced between ordinary stainless and tungsten. Still not cheap... Easton haven't done that.
It's a reasonable compromise as the tool steel is unlikely to bend like stainless which is what mainly splits the shaft. However, the density of tool steel is pretty much the same as stainless so it doesn't change the profile leaving that long extended point - or lever depending on how it hits :) Tungsten is over twice as dense which means that you can reduce the length of the point by around 2/3rds - the internal rod part isn't reduced as much.

If an X10 with a tungsten point is breaking on hitting a straw bail it's pretty safe to say that it's the arrow shaft that's failing and no type of point would have prevented that. It's down to the 14th century target and 21st century arrow. I basically don't shoot at straw unless I've got a longbow.
 

Timid Toad

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It's a reasonable compromise as the tool steel is unlikely to bend like stainless which is what mainly splits the shaft. However, the density of tool steel is pretty much the same as stainless so it doesn't change the profile leaving that long extended point - or lever depending on how it hits :) Tungsten is over twice as dense which means that you can reduce the length of the point by around 2/3rds - the internal rod part isn't reduced as much.

If an X10 with a tungsten point is breaking on hitting a straw bail it's pretty safe to say that it's the arrow shaft that's failing and no type of point would have prevented that. It's down to the 14th century target and 21st century arrow. I basically don't shoot at straw unless I've got a longbow.
Actually, tool steel points for Nanos are considerably more compact than the standard SS ones. Perhaps half the length point, and 2/3rds the shank, for the same 120gn.
 

Libris

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Actually, tool steel points for Nanos are considerably more compact than the standard SS ones. Perhaps half the length point, and 2/3rds the shank, for the same 120gn.
That seems quite strange I?d have expected them to be roughly the same size; carbon steel density is much the same as most stainless steel - 120gr is around 1 cm[SUP]3 [/SUP]of steel. I haven?t handled the CX points myself but from the pictures I?ve seen, it looks very much like a savvy Carbon Express marketing guy has a picture of the lighter set for the carbon steel and the heavier set for the stainless. But that just me being cynical :poulies:
 

KidCurry

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Actually, tool steel points for Nanos are considerably more compact than the standard SS ones. Perhaps half the length point, and 2/3rds the shank, for the same 120gn.
That can't be right. Stainless Steel 303/304 is about 5% heavier that tool steel.
 

Timid Toad

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I'll measure properly tomorrow, I have both. Trust me, it's not something you'll have trouble eyeballing.
 

Timid Toad

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I haven't been able to upload images, but
Standard SS point: 30.2mm, shank: 54.25mm
Tool Steel: 16.94mm, shank: 48.19mm
 

KidCurry

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I haven't been able to upload images, but
Standard SS point: 30.2mm, shank: 54.25mm
Tool Steel: 16.94mm, shank: 48.19mm
Thank you for the dimensions Timid Toad.
I've just done some hag packet calculations for an X10 ss point. Calculated weight = 118grains actual weight = 120grains so I happy my calculations are quite good. However, apply these calculations to the Pro tool steel point at standard tool steel densities and the point specified above should not weigh more than 86-90grains. This takes spec values for tool steel densities at 7.8g/cm3. Now this density is about right for all types of tool steel I am aware of. However, Carbon Express list the steel as 'A1' which is new to me. If anyone can find a density for A1 tool steel, or any spec for A1 tool steel I would be very interested, especially it's machining characteristics. By my calculation it needs to be around 10.8g - 11g/cm3 to achieve the 120grain point weight for the given dimensions above.
 
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