compound and clout shooting?

[hippiepunk]

My club is holding a clout shoot shortly, they only do it once or twice a year for fun, ive never had chance to do it , and am looking forward to it...but...How does one go about clout shooting a horizontal sheet at around 80 yds with a compound bow...I believe I am banned from sky pointing my compound unlike the trad and recurve archers. Is this correct?if so any advice on sighting etc greatfully received!

 

[Huffy]

Some of my club members who have shot clout could get away with aiming directly at the top of the flag, i.e about 1 1/2 foot up. Also 80yds for clout is very close, its normally 180 yds for gents and 120yds for ladies and only going down to 80 yards for juniors.

 

[hippiepunk]

thanks, to be honest the 80 yds was a pure guess on distance having never seen a clout shoot. Ive not been at this game for long

 

[Phil Reay]

did a two way clout once. some of the compounds had weird sights on which i didn't think was allowed. was really strange as one way was really, really difficult to reach and the other way they went waaaayyyyyy over. made for a really interesting shoot. good luck

 

[geoffretired]

All distances within range of the bow can be shot by aiming in two ways.( except for the bow's max range) Normally, we use the lower aim. Imagine doing 20y by aiming almost vertically up, and waiting for the arrow to come down!!!! With clout, when the bow can manage a bit more than the 180y, using either the high or low aim can be allowed and can be helpful for some.For example shooting high can mean the arrows drop down onto the flag, where the low aim can mean they fly so flat that slightly off aim and high means a long way past the flag.Compounds are not allowed to use high aim as they could land 1/4 mile away!!
For a first attempt at 180y you should be ok aiming with the point of the arrow at the flag.If that is too short, try the arrow shelf next.The arrows land pretty flat and the group tends to be long and narrow.

 

[Dave Draper]

Sorry Geoff,
You are not quite right. As per paragraph 700g in the Rules of Shooting, the high trajectory technique is banned for ALL bows except longbows. I suspect that GNAS are also in error in allowing the high draw for longbows. I suspect that what is happening is that longbow archers just need a high angle of elevation just to achieve the distance. Maximum range will occur at about 43 degrees (in air or 45 degrees in a vacuum). So longbows might be using something like 35 to 40 degrees. A high draw elevation would be greater than 43 degrees.
One way to get arrows out of a compound to hit the ground at an appropriate angle would be to use heavier arrows, thus slowing them down.
Regards
Dave

 

[geoffretired]

Hi Dave, Heehee sorry, I didn't say the right things in my last post. I was explaining the "mechanics of aiming" not the legalities attached to high draws. What I said is "Possible" but not within the rules. I realise on reading again, that I used the word "ALLOWED" by mistake. I am glad you pulled me up for that. An "oversight" on my part.Cheers.

 

[DavidH]

Sorry Geoff,
You are not quite right. As per paragraph 700g in the Rules of Shooting, the high trajectory technique is banned for ALL bows except longbows. I suspect that GNAS are also in error in allowing the high draw for longbows. I suspect that what is happening is that longbow archers just need a high angle of elevation just to achieve the distance. Maximum range will occur at about 43 degrees (in air or 45 degrees in a vacuum). So longbows might be using something like 35 to 40 degrees. A high draw elevation would be greater than 43 degrees.
One way to get arrows out of a compound to hit the ground at an appropriate angle would be to use heavier arrows, thus slowing them down.
Regards
Dave

Why would it be in error for longbows Dave? The average club longbow require a good elevation to make the distance. Seeing as none of the other major disciplines even existed when the clout round first started, it would be a bit silly if longbow archers couldn't reach the distance.

 

[Dave Draper]

Hi Geoff,
No probs. I was just a bit concerned that someone new to Clout could get the wrong end of the stick.
Hi David,
Perhaps I have misunderstood GNAS, but they seem to be saying that longbows are allowed to use the high elevation technique, ie greater than 43 degrees. Why would longbows do this, as it would result in a shorter range. Because of the design of the longbow and its arrows it tends to have a shorter cast than, say, a recurve of the same draw weight. So, as you say, longbow archers need to use a much higher angle of elevation to get the distance that they require and this might look like the high elevation technique, but it still won't exceed 43 degrees as that would be counterproductive. Next time I am at a clout I will take my camera with me (after having been registered) and then I will analyse the images later to determine exactly what angles are being used.
Regards,
Dave

 

[DavidH]

Hi Geoff,
No probs. I was just a bit concerned that someone new to Clout could get the wrong end of the stick.
Hi David,
Perhaps I have misunderstood GNAS, but they seem to be saying that longbows are allowed to use the high elevation technique, ie greater than 43 degrees. Why would longbows do this, as it would result in a shorter range. Because of the design of the longbow and its arrows it tends to have a shorter cast than, say, a recurve of the same draw weight. So, as you say, longbow archers need to use a much higher angle of elevation to get the distance that they require and this might look like the high elevation technique, but it still won't exceed 43 degrees as that would be counterproductive. Next time I am at a clout I will take my camera with me (after having been registered) and then I will analyse the images later to determine exactly what angles are being used.
Regards,
Dave

I've looked again at that strange diagram GNAS has, and I still don't understand it Dave. As you say, beyond a certain angle, you wont shoot any further anyway. Last clout I shot at the club, it was announced that no one could draw at higher than 45 degrees. Someone will know the answer I'm sure

 

[geoffretired]

Hi David, I don't think the high aim is designed to reach further; but it could be used, when it is legal to do so, to give the archer a better chance of shooting closer to the correct distance as opposed to too long too short.
With a compound, for example, if the aim is just a small amount too high, the arrow can land ten yards too long.Similarly for a slightly low aim.
By aiming higher to get the right distance,by using heavier arrows for example, the need to be so precise is reduced as the arrows drop down to the target rather than fly past an inch above the ground for another ten yards.

David Draper,
Hi Geoff,
No probs. I was just a bit concerned that someone new to Clout could get the wrong end of the stick.
I thank you for your post. It wasn't till I re read it after your comments that I saw what a dangerous mistake I had made. It was accidental, but worth getting it corrected.

 

[DavidH]

Hi David, I don't think the high aim is designed to reach further

Got to disagree there Geoff, If I shot the bow level, the arrow wouldn't reach as far as when I raise the bow, but there has to be an an optimum angle. Each distance we shoot at involves a different angle, or am I confusing what you are saying?

 

[geoffretired]

Hi David, Yes, this is a misunderstanding.
What I am talking about is the two different aimings to reach the same distance. Any distance, less than max range of the bow, can be reached by aiming in two different ways. One elevation is below the 43deg and the other is above 43deg. So for example 120y might be reached by an elevation of 30deg and another aim at an elevation of 56deg or therabouts.
The 56deg aim is the high aim out of those two.
In a similar way, you could shoot directly into your own foot by aiming down at it, or go for the tricky version which would be at a high aim of almost vertical. You might hit your head that way though.( on the way down)

 

[morphymick]

Got to disagree there Geoff, If I shot the bow level, the arrow wouldn't reach as far as when I raise the bow, but there has to be an an optimum angle. Each distance we shoot at involves a different angle, or am I confusing what you are saying?

Each distance we shoot at involves 2 angles, low trajectory and high trajectory, up to the maximum distance for the bow/arrow/archer set-up.

In clout shooting, only longbows are allowed to use the high trajectory loose. Though why they'd want to when the low trajectory is less affected by the elements, I don't know...

Mick

 

[geoffretired]

I know there are advantages in changing to a higher trajectory. With compound for example, the flattest trajectory is very distance critical and heavier arrows can bring benefits in stability and in arrow approach angle. It would be different if the target was on the floor but upright.( ignore the size,)
As for longbow archers choosing the higher trajectory, well there are distinct advantages for them too.
With the arrow in the air for longer they have far more time available to them in which to encourage their arrows to "get over a bit".AND, that does work.............. why else would they do it?

 

[morphymick]

As for longbow archers choosing the higher trajectory, well there are distinct advantages for them too.
With the arrow in the air for longer they have far more time available to them in which to encourage their arrows to "get over a bit".AND, that does work.............. why else would they do it?

I see it all the time, how could I forget...

Mick

 

[DavidH]

I know there are advantages in changing to a higher trajectory. With compound for example, the flattest trajectory is very distance critical and heavier arrows can bring benefits in stability and in arrow approach angle. It would be different if the target was on the floor but upright.( ignore the size,)
As for longbow archers choosing the higher trajectory, well there are distinct advantages for them too.
With the arrow in the air for longer they have far more time available to them in which to encourage their arrows to "get over a bit".AND, that does work.............. why else would they do it?

So right, well maybe a bit left Now I'm still confused. It has been said that to get maximum distance, the optimum angle is 43 degrees. My bow will just about stretch to clout distance, so the higher trajectory would be no use to me would it? I can see that if you have a more powerful bow, dropping it from a great height will have the affect of the point landing straight on the flag or in my case, landing straight on any point other than the flag. Am I right now, or am I left, or am I a bit short? So is there a maximum angle for a long bow?

 

[geoffretired]

David, Any bow's max distance has only one elevation that allows the bow to reach that far.
For you to visualise what this is about, you could imagine shooting with the ladies at 140 y.( put her down! Right now!)
Now, when you have composed yourself, you could reach 140y with an elevation a little below 43deg, as 43 deg gives you nearly 180y. You could also choose to go above 43 deg as that would shorten the distance you would reach from 180 to 140, if you get it right and keep your mind on the shooting.

 

[DavidH]

David, Any bow's max distance has only one elevation that allows the bow to reach that far.
For you to visualise what this is about, you could imagine shooting with the ladies at 140 y.( put her down! Right now!)
Now, when you have composed yourself, you could reach 140y with an elevation a little below 43deg, as 43 deg gives you nearly 180y. You could also choose to go above 43 deg as that would shorten the distance you would reach from 180 to 140, if you get it right and keep your mind on the shooting.

Sorry, I haven't moved past the imagination bit yet

 

[geoffretired]

Nor me. The second part was written by a third party.