Bow Trainer

[Dhansak]

I am looking for something (other than a cliniband) to practice my form indoors. I would use my recurve, but our ceilings are too low!

My search turned up the "Bow Trainer". It is advertised as a strength developer - which is low on my list of priorities at the moment. I was wondering if it is enough like a bow for form training? Would appreciate comments from folk who have tried this piece of kit. (To avoid any google confusion it looks like a stick with 4 elasticated bands attached).

Thanks

p.s. suggestions to buy another shorter bow gratefully accepted lol

 

[geoffretired]

If you aren't too worried about string angle, you could get some shock cord and fix it to the ends of your riser. DIY places sell it in various strengths.

 

[Corax67]

My brother-in-law has one of these and finds it really useful, he should be on the forum later to give more details


https://www.quicksarchery.co.uk/superbasket/product/2783/WA40+Win+and+Win+Power+Belt+Stretch+Band:+


Of course I suggest you buy another bow




Karl

 

[KidCurry]

I guess it really depends on what aspect of your form you want to work on. I found aiming at full draw was OK by lifting the loft hatch door.,

 

[dvd8n]

I bought one of these when I first started to get my strength up. And it did work.

You can use it to practise anchor and expansion but not brilliantly as the string angle is very steep.

And you can't use it to practise release as it hurts like **** when the elastic hits your hand.

I don't use it any more as I'm not looking to up my poundage further.

 

[Dhansak]

Thanks all for your replies - sorry about my tardy response (under-the-weather, lying down a lot!)

Geoff - brilliant idea; will give that a go when I'm back up and running. I see the string angle problem, but a 25" riser should give a much better angle than most of the stretchy gizmos I've seen.


Corax - yes that's the kit. Look forward to your brother-in-law's comments if he has the time. Also mucho gracias for your support of the new bow strategy


KidCurry - excellent use of a loft hatch! Mine is in a useless position for this unfortunately.

dvd8n - I was mainly interested in improving back tension at full draw. Hadn't realised that the string angle could impact that feeling. The release bit doesn't sound like fun


Wasn't really thinking of using it for it's stated purpose (strength improvement) - just hoping for a form aid (that was also short enough for indoors). Thought it may be useful as the chart shows rubber bands 1,2 and 3 as producing ( at my approx draw length) 19, 23 and 28 pounds respectively. My normal OTF weight is 30lbs so was thinking I could use 23 for getting the feel, then 28 for bedding it in. However the charts may not be accurate. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXF0zvgCl7w

He reckons the bands were 20/20/25 not 19/23/28. Sample size of 1 though.....

I guess that's moot now as it doesn't sound like the best thing for what I'm after.

Maybe I should build my own .... get a cheap trainer bow riser (so my bow hand feels right) and bolt some bits on the end to increase shock-cord angle.... hmm. However my DIY skills leave a lot to be desired and I would probably build something that would unravel at the worst possible moment lol.

A question has just occurred to me: Does the "frame" (with respect to back tension at full draw) feel the same for an archer drawing a 68" bow vs. say, a 60" field recurve or a 35" compound? I know the draw will be different, but are they the same having got to full draw and starting expansion?

 

[geoffretired]

By "frame" do you mean the archer's upper body? OR are you talking about a training aid called the frame?

I think the term "Back tension" is rather misleading. If an archer is holding a bow at full draw, he/she is using back tension.
If that wasn't the case, the shoulder blade would slide round away from the spine and the draw elbow would creep forwards and stick out.
What I think, is that when we are in a good posture, there is a chance that some of the weaker muscles don't need to be used,( biceps for one)and the forearm can relax and that makes drawing the bow feel easier. Sometimes we feel it is so much easier that the bow feels easier to draw. We don't feel the tension; we feel the control, or the ease. We can feel where our elbow and shoulder is, but no struggle attached.
Using your current riser and shock cord, it is possible to cheat the draw fingers into thinking the string angle is the same as that on the bow when fully set up. It will not give you the same string to face contact that your full bow does, but the fingers feel normal. I'm not sure that it will help with what you want to do, but I can sketch it out if you feel you could get on better with the right string angle on your fingers.

 

[Kickaha]

Occams razor leads us to the conclusion that you should step outside your front/back door to do your training.

 

[Dhansak]

Kickaha - lol - indeed I already do, weather permitting! This for those times when when it is too wet, or I just fancied a quick 5 min practice without the hassle of getting the bow bag out for a complete assembly job. This isn't intended to replace a good outdoor session at home, but to supplement it with extra mini-bursts of regular practice. I think this helps with physical skills... well I used to find it so with classical guitar; yes the long sessions would be great (and required) but the daily random 5 or 10 mins actually contributed a lot too (for me anyway).


Geoff
- I was using "frame" referring to the upper body.
- Fully agree with you that the phrase "back tension" can be misleading - I think I use it automatically as it seems to be part of the vocabulary used where I alight when googling archery endlessly When I used the phrase I meant it in the sense you indicated i.e. when the back tension is correctly in place you don't subjectively feel tension. I have got to the stage where I can sometimes get my draw geometry correct, so get that sense of ease in the forearm and bicep. The non-tense bicep (well not tense enough for me to notice) I have had for awhile, but the relaxed forearm is a new (but all too infrequent) experience for me. It is this I am trying to practice. My body knows when it has done it; it just doesn't know it well enough to do it most of the time. I don't know if the string angle would with the riser/cord combo would impact this sort of practice? Am also considering a Rolan Snake bow (just for this, not for shooting!) as it is a 60" bow and should fit (measurement required first...) in the house and cost about the same if not less than a lot of the shorter stretchy things I have seen out there..
- I would be fascinated to see a sketch on how to fool your fingers re string angle if you have the time - thanks

 

[Kickaha]

Here is an idea if you can visualise it:

Get a piece of tubing about 1 inch shorter than your riser and feed the shock cord through it. Attach the ends of the cord to your riser.
Then get an old bowstring and feed that through the tube.
Adjust the string so that it gives the same string angle you have on your bow at full draw.
You can then adjust the shock cord length to give the draw weight you want, and the string angle/face reference should be the same as your real draw.

Having wrote it down I think there is a market for this so all rights reserved.

 

[Kickaha]

Hopefully this ascii art works.


Shock cord
~~~~~~~~~
| |. | |\
| |. | | \
| |. | |. \
| |. | |. \. Old bowstring
| |. | |. \
| |. | |. \
| |. | |. \
| |. | |. \
| |. | |. \
| | | |. Tube /
| | riser | |. /
| | | |. /
| | | |. /
| | | |. /
| | | |. /
| | | |. /
| | | |. /
| | | |. /
~~~~~~~~~

 

[dv24]

Corax - yes that's the kit. Look forward to your brother-in-law's comments if he has the time. Also mucho gracias for your support of the new bow strategy

That would be me - the one Karl posted is a great trainer, though echo what was said in the forum that you do not use it for practicing your release, however it simulates drawing and holding the poundage.

I use it regularly and find it helps me develop my routine and stance. Ceiling height is also an issue for me, my suggestion to combat this is to stand on the stairs, I live in a very quite block of flats so the turning stair is where I used to practice before buying a training aid (without arrow).

 

[geoffretired]

Dhansak, My idea about the string angle is much the same as that described by Kickaha. The tube could be replaced with a length of wood with a hole near each end... depends what you have around the house.

On a slightly different note, but relevant; body posture plays a huge part in how the "frame" feels when at full draw.
To my way of thinking, most of the alignment problems start when the archer strides the line and turns to face the target.
Quite often the draw shoulder swings round in sympathy.
Then there is the raising of the bow; another opportunity to swing the shoulders even more.
Getting the bow from its resting position to its shooting position is often done with little thought, other than to get the bow upright and in front of the target we are shooting on. There is a strong tendency to unknowingly bring the rear shoulder round towards the front. That amount will vary more often than not as it isn't something we are controlling.
Try this little exercise.
Stand square to an imaginary shooting line. Raise both arms out straight to the sides to make the T posture. Fold the draw elbow, so the hand rubs under the chin while still facing along that shooting line. Let the draw hand move further forward so your wrist is now rubbing under your jaw, and continue as far as is comfortable. Your draw hand will have reached beyond you bow shoulder, but not so far as the bow arm's elbow.
When we raise our bow to the target, with the bow arm about level and straight, where is the string hand? If we are doing a T draw, it will be about level with the bow hand and might appear to be just to the right of the bow hand, or possibly hiding it. BUT where is it in relation to the elbow of the bow arm? If it is at the elbow, chances are the shoulder has swung round to allow that to happen.

 

[BlackadderIA]

Just use your actual bow and do reversals? Maybe with a formaster as its a bit easier on the fingers. There's even a nice timer app for the iPhone to time the hold, rest and reps. Works great.

As for the top limb hitting the ceiling - just sit on a chair!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Dhansak]

Kickaha - nice idea .... Patent it now! I like your ascii creation - good stuff ... thank you kindly. Goes off rummaging..

dv24 - thanks for the info.I will definitely not be practising my release with it if I end up getting one! Good to know it's a solid piece of kit. Also, am now eyeing the stairs speculatively.....

geoff - interesting comments re getting the bow in the initial position. I tried your exercise and can get my drawing hand just past my bow shoulder before my drawing shoulder starts to swing round. When I am drawing the bow for real, my drawing hand is forward of the bow arm elbow - with the shoulder swung well round. Is it that this should be avoided (by a particular pre-draw setup?) or is it inevitable but should be done mindfully?


Blackadder: "just sit on a chair" .... just tried it ... awesome! I got so much into the feel of the draw I almost dry fired - gulp. I have a tendency to try and get my rear shoulder into position (when I am not drawing quite right) by rotating my rear hip back a bit. I can only tell I've done it when I go to put my bow back on it's stand - I get a twinge of pain there when I bend to put the bow back. Hey a use for a dodgy lower back at last! Sitting down obviously locks the lower body so this will help with that part of things - thanks! By the way - what is the name of the app you referred to? - I'll have to look for an android version.


Blimey - you have all given me a lot to think about - stairs, chairs, tubes, sticks and shock cords... and getting the bow into position in the first place...

Absolutely brilliant input from you all - thank you for the help

 

[BlackadderIA]

No worries. I remember when someone first told me to just draw sat down when training in the house - all those times of banging the top limb into the roof and I never thought to just sit down!
The app is just called 'reversals timer' but you can do it with a stopwatch if it's not on Android. If you've never come across reversals it's just drawing and holding. All based around a minute per 'rep' so initially maybe hold for ten seconds then rest for fifty before repeating ten times. The eventual aim being hold for 30 seconds , rest for 30 seconds repeated 30 times. It's best done with a rigid formaster training aid as otherwise you can hurt the nerve in your fingers with all the holding. Formaster is silly money for what it is but means you draw with your elbow not your hand so you have no choice but to use your back. Teaches proper back use especially if you shoot actual arrows while wearing the elastic version (which if you don't have proper back tension makes you do a spectacular and hilarious collapse when you loose).
If you google 'KSL Shot Cycle' it'll take you to coach Lee's site which has some other exercises similar to reversals under the SPT section (although I'd only try the behind your head one in the house if you don't like your ornaments!).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[geoffretired]

interesting comments re getting the bow in the initial position. I tried your exercise and can get my drawing hand just past my bow shoulder before my drawing shoulder starts to swing round. When I am drawing the bow for real, my drawing hand is forward of the bow arm elbow - with the shoulder swung well round. Is it that this should be avoided (by a particular pre-draw setup?) or is it inevitable but should be done mindfully?

My thinking on aspects of shooting form are, that it is easier to get something right if most of the struggles or variables is eliminated by planning ahead.
Swinging round to look at the target at the start of the draw, is natural. If correcting is left to the end, we are in a stressful situation which makes it harder to get right and more likely to be forgotten altogether.
Another aspect of this is that the first posture reached, also allows for a testing for bow shoulder position. It is easy to get the shoulder down during that pause before the draw starts. Trying to get the bow shoulder down at the end of the draw is too late. We are too busy aiming and under too much pressure from the draw weight.
I work on the principle that every stage of the draw is designed to make the next stage more likely to succeed.
Having the shoulders out of alignment by the time the string reaches the face, can lead to a struggle with finding the expected anchor point. The shot feels wrong and the reason is often hidden in the stress of the moment.
You say you have been given a lot to think about.
I think that is a good thing. I think it puts you in a position where you can move forwards knowing that the new will be better than the old.
Much of what you have been told is about changes in posture and how to go about practising to reinforce those changes. Changes in posture that happen early in the shot sequence are much easier to get right. BUT best of all, they give you far better control over the execution of the shots.