I have to tilt all the time - can't be right - can it?

J

joe Schnur

New member
Wow . Ok shoulder challenge going to make the similar leap,as others but in a different direction folks that are,shoulder impaired or worried about it generally are not drawing with draw hand at eye leve and bow hand at eye level if you do this while looking at the gold you will come to full draw . Remember both front and back hand start and stay at same height as each other you will be drawing into your line of sight and coming down to it. If you ar doing what you describe you will always recruit unnecessary muscles to bring the target into center ie raise the bow. This will adversely effect your aiming . See allister whittinghams video on the draw for a visual description of what I am talking about


Staff shooter for Spot Shooter Archery (one of the best pro shops in michigan)
Hoyt Pro Comp Elite XL 54# , Hoyt horizon pro 720 Grand Prix limbs 40#
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B

Bird_2112

Member
Hi,

As soon as I read the 1st post my thoughts went straight to a collapsing/high bow shoulder. Without a bow just lift your bow arm and hold it level with the shoulder down. Now pull the shoulder up and and the bow hand has to drop down therefore lowering the sight pin so your looking through the ring and at the grass therefore you tilt back to lift it again.

Back to doing it for real.. So you concentrate on keeping the bow arm level and shoulder down at the start of the draw but does it rise up ?. A photo may have been taken when tilting back making the arm level.

G.
 
D

Dr. B

New member
Isn't what OP saying this?
They raise bow arm parallel to ground.
Draw to nose and chin (ignore the bit about tilting head, that's another issue).
Look at the sight ring and they see grass through it (it is well below the gold).
So they have to tilt at the waist a fair way to get sight ring on gold.

I mean, this sounds pretty correct tehcnique? If the bow was more powerful, they would have to tilt less.
Most people I see shoot don't do this. They either place the ring on the gold then draw, or tilt as they are drawing.
I think you will find that if you raise your bow arm, close your eyes and draw to anchor, then open your eyes, the sight ring will not be on gold, depending on the distance.
 
D

Dhansak

Member
Wow - thanks for all the feedback - much appreciated. Sorry have been away from the forum for a bit - getting married next week so got a bit sidetracked :)


OH took a photo and video of me on the range yesterday - video is huge so may ask her to do video of individual draw/release rather than a whole end. Also it is in 3gp format - is that ok or should I convert it to something else?

Anyway the photo shows me at full draw before doing the tilt to bring the sight up to the gold at 20 yards...... I know I said my arm was parallel - this was based on photos in the past as well as how it seemed to me subjectively. However looking at this make it seem possibly low - am not 100% sure as the surrounding ground is not level.

IMAG0345.jpg


As a result of this I have tried raising the arm slightly before drawing - but the arm does not feel as stable - it doesn't feel like it's quite nestling in the joint like it does when it's "low" - assuming it is low that is - can't see for looking!
 
D

Dr. B

New member
Definitely looks like the arm, arrow and longrod are pointing down more than just due to the ground sloping up.
 
Nightimer

Nightimer

New member
A shot from behind would be good.
Judging from this shot your bow shoulder looks "scrunched" up.
A giveaway is the amount of string contacting your chest.
 
G

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
I would say that you are standing normally, in other words, upright. Compared to your upright posture, your bow arm is pointing downhill. I would expect the arrow to hit the ground, rather than a target on a stand.
Perhaps you have become accustomed to shooting that way and anything else feels "odd".
Without doing any tilting at the waist, if you raise the bow hand so the sight is on the gold, I feel you should then be in a good posture.
Because of the novelty of the change you will feel your bow hand is much higher than it really is. You will feel your hand is sky high; we will see it looking "right".
 
KidCurry

KidCurry

Well-known member
AIUK Saviour
Dhansak said:
Wow - thanks for all the feedback - much appreciated. Sorry have been away from the forum for a bit - getting married next week so got a bit sidetracked :)


OH took a photo and video of me on the range yesterday - video is huge so may ask her to do video of individual draw/release rather than a whole end. Also it is in 3gp format - is that ok or should I convert it to something else?

Anyway the photo shows me at full draw before doing the tilt to bring the sight up to the gold at 20 yards...... I know I said my arm was parallel - this was based on photos in the past as well as how it seemed to me subjectively. However looking at this make it seem possibly low - am not 100% sure as the surrounding ground is not level.

View attachment 4217


As a result of this I have tried raising the arm slightly before drawing - but the arm does not feel as stable - it doesn't feel like it's quite nestling in the joint like it does when it's "low" - assuming it is low that is - can't see for looking!
Click to expand...

It does look like you have gotten use to drawing from a low angle then coming up to aim. If this is the case you will find it very hard to keep your bow shoulder down. I took the liberty of adjusting the picture above to show you on aim by rotating you at the waist as I think you said (tilting).
corrected1.jpg

It does look like the bow shoulder is high which is compacting the top line. If you practice drawing with the sight on the gold, or just above, and keeping your shoulder down, although it will feel odd for a while, it should start to feel more natural after a couple of months. It also looks like you bow arm elbow is rotated in a bit too much, but it may be the shirt that makes it look that way, but it can add to a high shoulder feeling more comfortable when in fact the elbow should be rotated down (clockwise).
 
G

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
A very useful exercise can done with a stretchy band.
Usually the band is knotted into a loop so each hand can "hold" it as if shooting.
Come to full draw but get the draw hand under the cheek bone.( much higher than normal,yes?)
Raise only the bow hand, while staying at full draw. Raise the bow hand until it is at eye level. ( it will block out your view ahead when raised that far.)
Then, while staying at full draw, lower and then raise the bow hand, keeping the bow arm straight. You will find that as the hand moves up there is a point where the draw feels lighter. As the draw then moves down, you will again feel a point where the draw feels lighter.
Have a rest between doing this several times. When you start to feel more relaxed about the exercise, start drawing to your normal anchor position. Repeat the up and down movements, waiting to feel the draw weight dropping off at the top and bottom of the movements.
When the weight feels lighter with the bow hand higher than the bow shoulder, you should be able to gently press the shoulder down so its stays down quite readily. Then you can use the band to mimic the draw weight and hold the riser, just to add some mass to the bow hand. Repeat the exercise, holding the riser, till you feel relaxed again.

EDIT.
By doing that, it is possible to feel how having the bow hand higher than the bow shoulder, can create a posture where the bow's mass is easier to support, at full draw. That can, in turn help to keep the bow shoulder low and seated.( rather than lower than the draw shoulder just because the upper body is bent over to the side.
 
D

Dhansak

Member
I can't thank you all enough for your help. I have tried the exercises suggested with the stretch band and tried to take on the advice re drawing the bow from a higher starting position etc. I haven't had a chance to shoot since my previous photo but have been trying out the new draw this evening in the garden. My OH took these:

IMAG0346.jpg



IMAG0347.jpg


Although the draw did feel odd it did feel good - not as wildly out of whack as I was half-expecting! To my untrained eye it does look as I may be heading down a better path now - what do you reckon?

I do have some videos I would l like to upload but they are 10mb each in 3gp (phone video format) - will investigate converting them to something smaller in a different format - avi probably.

Thanks again!
 
G

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
The bow arm looks good and the bow shoulder is level with the draw shoulder, I would agree that you are on a better path now than you were before.
The posture you are in now, is stronger than the old one and gives a better platform from which to aim and finish the shot.
The view of you from the back looks more "relaxed", even though your expression isn't visible.
On the front view, it does look a little as if you are "kissing" the string. That tends to make me think that you are trying to reach the string; rather than bringing the string back to you. Perhaps a slightly longer draw would save you from getting into the habit of reaching forwards towards the string with the head.
You must be pleased with the new you.
 
D

Dhansak

Member
Kid Curry - thanks for taking the time to tweak the first photo - didn't realise I was scrunching my shoulder on top of everything else!

geoffretired - thank you for your helpful comments re the latest photos. Think you are right about me reaching for the string - it is probably a hangover from my earlier days of drawing straight back with my sight over the gold - never could get nose contact then so was trying to extend my head I guess!
Yes I am pleased with the new me - as long as I can get him to come out and play on the next session :) Am looking forward to shooting tomorrow - will be interesting to see where my sight ends up relative to the boss/gold. Regardless of that, I am happy to have taken the steps to a better foundation!
 
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geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
The next time you shoot will be an exciting time, yes?
Stick to the plan you have used to get to that posture we see in the new photos.
The new posture is better; so use it. There is sometimes a tendency to expect new and better form, to produce better scores. That expectation can sometimes trap us into using the old familiar form, for comfort.
I would say that objective number one is to make sure the new form is used. Use it and get used to it, get good at using it, and see how scores change after that.
 
D

Dhansak

Member
Absolutely - will stick to trying to embed this new form regardless of scores in the short term. You're right - returning to old habits can be very seductive just to get scores back to what you are familiar with.

I have a couple of things in my favour though:

Firstly - I have been through about 4 different draws in the past few months in a search for shoulder-happiness. Don't know how I ended up so low with the last one - thank heavens I wasn't happy with all that tilting otherwise I may not have moved on to this new one. Each time I have changed, the scores have dropped then eventually risen to above previous levels. This draw is the best so far - at a fundamental level I think my body will get to like it a lot! In any case it seems to be something I can at last move forward with.

Secondly - I have nothing to lose and everything to gain. I am at the beginning of my journey - have only just gone from unclassified to 3rd class so starting from scratch is not a hard fall lol. I can only imagine what it would be like to be very good and then have something go awry with your technique - yikes....


Yep - definitely looking forward to tomorrow - what can be better than that?!
 
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