Archery.... is there a need for further change?

[Big George]

Coincidently at the end of our club night we happened to be talking about people not carrying on after beginner session. The last one the club held has two still shooting (out of 8, though we think 2 may have joined another club nearer to them), one of our archers said he was the only one from his course who carried on, last years course had no-one carrying on. We are a smallish and friendly club but it puzzles me as to why people do it and then give up (ok, you will always have some drop out).

in terms of pay and play , I think the insurance for letting effectively untrained people loose would be quite high. You’d need to employ someone to mange the shooting line safely.

 

[Sinbad]

I think the reason most drop the sport is they see some shooting the longer distance and think they should be there within weeks because it looks easy. Some buy the gear without getting the info they need and usually over bow or wrong arrows etc and again doesn't give them what they have seen others doing.

The people at my club are a good mixed bunch, friendly etc with good coaches from a young man in his late teens, a lady who also does excellent cake and a guy who lives for the sport. But I do see divides between new members and the longer distance shooters, but that is how the field is set out. They do lose people early on but seem to keep a couple from each group they have.

They do fun shoots for all including 3d setups that have done few times, still being tested out before big money gets spent. Not quite like the woods but with the use of the odd branch and tyre could be interesting for all.

 

[Big George]

There could be something in that. I’ve seen similar when I paddle. After years at it I tend to look nice and relaxed, no frantic paddling, looks easy to keep the canoe/kayak in a straight line. you get beginners trying it and suddenly they are zigzagging across the river like they‘re avoiding U-boats.

It takes time to improve, some want more instant success.

 

[geoffretired]

From what I have seen over the years the archers who drop out tend to do so after about a year or two. Often they are a mix of archers who struggle, along with ones who do really well. It is difficult to keep enthusiastic when progress is poor, as it can be for some. They got " the hang of it" up to a point during their first few months but never really get much better after that. For those who make a good start, progress is good and so is attendance levels. Then the progress reaches a stage where most of the main ingredients have been learnt and the refinement stage is reached. That can be a really boring stage, as it takes ages for one thing and a lot of effort. What once seemed so natural and easy; is no longer the case.
And there are some who leave because they feel unwanted.
I think we should also consider why some archers stay with it. They must get something out of it,yes?
A bit of fun with their friends out in the fresh air. For the more serious it is what many have wanted for ages before they got the chance or the time to give to it. The fact that they seem to be doing the same thing over and over, is misleading. They are actually trying to improve and that is something that has no sell by date.

 

[Sinbad]

As I have only been back into the sport for the last 6 months, I am lucky that I have still got the bug after time out, and have set some goals. getting back to where I was score wise is one of them for this year, and try and take a couple of club records, but we need the weather to get out for that.

I watched a newish guy shooting at 30 meters a few weeks back (frostbite day). After a couple of ends, he went over to the kids 20 meter boss to shoot. I asked why, and he didn't want to upset anyone having to take time to collect arrows when he missed the boss (2 targets each boss). Tried to explain that we have all been there at some point, but he was happier on the 20 yard range.

I think for us, if doing that type of shoot, mixing the experienced shooters with the newish ones would help get them chatting a little more, and can even benefit them with shooting form, or help with noise from the bow, anything really. just my 2p worth.

 

[chuffalump]

A bit of fun with their friends out in the fresh air. For the more serious it is what many have wanted for ages before they got the chance or the time to give to it. The fact that they seem to be doing the same thing over and over, is misleading. They are actually trying to improve and that is something that has no sell by date.

I think serious archery is actually a solitary sport. With optional fun in the fresh air with friends. When I shoot, I'm working on myself. When I compete, I'm still working on myself. Comparing my scores to others afterwards is incidental since my shooting has no impact outside of me. The socialising is at the expense of shooting to a certain extent. If you look at team sports, involvement with others is intrinsic. Even golf, by its nature is social since any group playing a round are chatting while they take turns to putt or whatever.

Turn this around though. Archery can be very social but, by its nature, attracts long term practitioners who are fairly obsessive. Archery is a social filter. Shaped towards people with patience and the ability to defer gratification.

 

[Whitehart]

From my understanding people do not carry on or drop out a few months after buying their equipment is because in some clubs there is no formal coaching structure or plan to help them progress, so it really is just plonking arrows same old...week in week out. Unlike many individual sports you know from the start the development path, objectives and achievements you can expect over say 5 years. With archery there is no guidance from the top AGB and everything relies on the drive and desire of the archer - not just to improve (having to ask for help) but find out what is available to them - its no wonder AGB have dropped some schemes due to lack of participation - most of the time it is because nobody is told about them. I have yet to meet anyone who does not like earning a badge for their quiver.

 

[geoffretired]

Sinbad I agree about newish archers shooting with more experienced archers, It is how I started. I notice with some 252 schemes all the novices are together with others who no very little either. It is a recipe for feeling isolated.... if it isn't managed.
Chuffalump, yes archery can be a solitary sport when you are doing your shooting and taking it seriously.I suppose golf can be similar when you are driving or putting if you are a serious golfer.
I am not sure about ability to defer gratification. Perhaps that is true of those wanting medals and working towards that end. But in many cases the gratification needs to come a bit sooner, like on the day when they shoot.
Andrew, I can agree with all you say, but also add that sometimes the drop off comes while they are being coached.

 

[Kernowlad]

I think an issue I had was the lack of goals once we’d got past the beginner stage.
Turns out we both “qualified” for several awards but no one told us or mentioned it.
Then when I got a decent frostbite score (1st by some margin) I very clearly put noses out of joint. Not saying I was anything special at all but my feeling of being rather chuffed soon turned into feeling rather frustrated. Clearly there was nothing I could do to feel included.

Totally different at the field club.

 

[geoffretired]

I think it is fair to say that the clubs available for beginners to join,can vary not only in size, but in level of archery in the present membership, the level of interest of the present membership and the level of expertise. Some clubs are well organised and forward looking. Some have no coaches and no experienced archers either. That is what archery clubs are like; varied.
Does archery require clubs to change their ways to fit a template?
If your answer is yes, how can the changes be brought about?

 

[Whitehart]

Also in a small club it can sometimes be harder to be accepted or not feel intimidated, until you get to know other members and meeting only once/twice a week to shoot - by the nature of archery isolated to one part of the shooting line it can take months. However friendly people try to be, the definition of friendly has many meanings - we all have our own view of the world, thoughts and opinions and social demographics (re: Bupa advert there are 7bn forms of normal). What is thought to be doing the right thing may be interpreted totally differently. In bigger clubs there is a chance to find a group that you feel comfortable being around rather than hoping to be lucky. I always suggest that people visit a club even before signing up for a beginners course to make sure operating times are ok and you get a feel for what the club is like and whether you will enjoy shooting there.

 

[geoffretired]

Hi Andrew. I totally agree with that.
I started this thread to get feedback about other people's views regarding archery and need to change. The club where I shoot has had a shake up recently and I am trying to prepare something to say to the committee based on views of other in different clubs.
It is so easy to become inward looking when there seems to be no reason to change.
Wanting to change things is part of life; just as wanting to keep what we have worked for is part of life.
I can see from the replies that there several ways that archery can change. PnP is just one. Not all the changes need to be made by archery clubs. And not all archery clubs need to change. They may want to change; but that is different.
Done properly, changes make the people involved feel better about the changes made.
I have no doubts that making some changes can be very difficult. It is also true that not all clubs will have the members who can make the changes. The three clubs I have been a member of have all been very different from each other. And that is just taking into account the people, not the venues.
We are different by design.

 

[Sinbad]

What are the main changes that you are looking at Geoff? The club I am at, I enjoy the shooting, the way it works (could have some changes) and the camaraderie. Just be interested in what you want to change. I know the fun shoot stuff would be a good idea, but getting people to commit to putting the work in would not happen (even for me).

 

[geoffretired]

Hi Sinbad,
Initially I was looking at what others were thinking about. So that I could get a feel for what other clubs were wanting or already doing.My thinking is quite narrow in comparison.
I wasn't personally looking for changes to make but wondering why some are saying we need more archers. Why do we need more archers? Are we running out of them?
Having read the posts on the thread I can see how PnP archery could be a great way for some to enjoy shooting some arrows when they get the time. If an archery club wants to offer that; I feel they are doing something worthwhile.
I don't shoot arrows for any other reason than I enjoy the feeling when the shots go as I planned. I do not mean they go where I planned. I can shoot up a field and enjoy the satisfaction of making a good shot. A bad shot doesn't feel nice where ever it goes.
In many ways I am a contented archer. At the club, I feel that if I can make it more likely that the new archers will stay, then I am doing something worthwhile. I do not go out looking for new archers to attend beginners' courses. The keen ones find us and I take it from there. That does not mean the club operates in that way.
So one change I would like to see, is more archers saying they are getting a good deal and enjoying their shooting. That does not mean we need more archers, rather that more of the archers we already have, feel they are getting a better deal.

 

[cave dweller]

Here's the main problem as I see it: People like me.

I've been shooting for half a century and have never been part of any club or organization. I've shot targets, live game and 3D outdoor and I know my own bows and ability. I do not need nor will I accept "instruction" or coaching from anybody and I am not going to join anythimng because I travel around a lot. However, if all I want to do is pop in somewhere and fling a few arrows at a target one afternoon there's nowhere to do that. I don't care what anybody thinks of my "form" and I don't care what anybody else uses to fling arrows at paper targets. I'd be quite happy to Pay and Play without having to be told why everything I do is wrong by somebody who hasn't even been alive for as long as I've been bow hunting.

I'm sure there are a lot of people out there who would love to be able to just pop in and fling a few arrows at a target for fun, and who would be happy to pay a small fee to be able to do it, but there's nowhere that offers that sort of thing so people like me are left to sneak out into the countryside when we can and go creeping off into the wilderness for miles just to casually fling a few secret (illegal) arrows at stumps or something when the urge hits us. We are not imbeciles and we are not criminals.

 

[geoffretired]

cave dweller, there are a lot of people like you. I would be the same if I lived where I could shoot in safety.
There seems to be a need for PnP places. I know there are clubs who take visitors for the occasional shooting session, like some golf clubs accept visitors.

 

[dvd8n]

I wasn't personally looking for changes to make but wondering why some are saying we need more archers. Why do we need more archers? Are we running out of them?

I must say that I sometimes feel that AGB is kind of like a cellphone company or ISP in that it cares more about attracting new archers than retaining the ones that it has.

AGB is encouraging of it's big-weekends and have-a-goes but as far as the established archer is concerned it's pretty much competitions and that's it. If you're not a competition person then you pretty much get your club night and that's it.

The one obvious thing that AGB could do better is coaching but I kind of feel that AGB is almost self-sabotaging in this respect. They offer coaching courses but they are pretty expensive plus the candidate needs to finance their board and lodgings. So becoming a coach is a serious financial commitment and as an extra little **** you a coach isn't allowed to charge a few quid to cover his outlay. Plus there seems to be (or used to be, or there was a perceived attitude that) coaching/advice shouldn't be offered but should be asked for. While I can see the rationale for this, you can easily end up with people shooting for years with no more knowledge than they came out of their beginner's course with. For instance I was recently asked what I was doing when I was adjusting my button. Fair enough; I explained, but this wasn't a beginner asking me - it was someone that was an established member when I started shooting about ten years ago! How do you shoot for over ten years without finding out what your button's for? Easy. Nobody told him. And I only knew by reading books and watching YouTube videos and sorting out the good information from the bad myself - not from anything AGB did. So people stagnate, become jaded, take an evening off, a week turns into a month, a month into a year and without thinking about it they're ex archers.

I know that individuals organise coaching sessions and the like for their clubs and I applaud them but I really think that AGB should be way more proactive in getting coaching into clubs.

 

[dvd8n]

So one change I would like to see, is more archers saying they are getting a good deal and enjoying their shooting. That does not mean we need more archers, rather that more of the archers we already have, feel they are getting a better deal.

I believe that the talk of pay to shoot is masking the real issue; that is that if you are a member of AGB that doesn't aspire to be an elite archer then AGB offers really poor value for money. I'd doubt that anyone could run a pay to shoot outfit anywhere outside of a major urban conurbation (like London) at a profit. A club is a much better way of organising things. But the accumulation of AGB fees that you have to pay is an extraordinarily expensive way of getting access to a school hall for a couple of hours a week.

And I do know archers that have switched organisations or given up archery completely specifically because of the fees.

 

[ben tarrow]

Geoff, as for more members, there are many good reasons for wanting more.
More archers means

• *a bigger pool to draw talent from, so you're more likely to find quality (hit and miss)
• *more potential friends
• *economies of scale - more people helping to pay for the same thing makes a smaller cost to each, whether its an entire olympic team or the cost of a rented sportshall
• *increased chance of funding because its clear to funders that more people want to do this
• *improved economic conditions which affects the availability of events - the more archers your club/county has the more likely that organisation/group is to be able to put on tournaments, coaching events.
• * replacing lost members
• *more potential volunteers, coaches etc

 

[LionOfNarnia]

Thought I'd put in a quick 2p at this point, before I head for the club...

Being on meager benefits archery does put a considerable strain on my resources - but what really hurts is that most of it is what I have to spend on petrol to actually reach the club. 'Fees' are around £15/m, including AGB etc but fuel runs close to £80/m.

From my PoV, the biggest change possible would be the establishment of a much more local club, say within 10 miles. The 2nd would be if that club held more than 2 sessions/wk.

Is it likely to happen?

I fear the answer is 'no' - unless I make it happen (which I'm not capable of) & there is a core of other enthusiasts locally to help (which there isn't ttbomk).