How short can a short short-bow be?

[Kieran Little]

Might want to have a shorter than normal stiff handle section on a flatbow design at 60", mind you depends on your draw, you'll be alright up to about 28" draw I would have thought. Hickory is a very nice wood for flatbows though.

4" wide is only really necessary if your aiming for a quite high weight or if you're unsure of yourself tillering, you'll never break the thing haha, other than that it just adds limb mass.

And backing, depends, it wont add any available draw length or cast unless you use sinew, which as discussed is a pain. Other backings like linen or silk are quick and easy and mean it should hold together slightly better on the back, call it insurance.

 

[WillS]

Backing is fairly optional. Ash benefits more from a heavily trapped back and heat tempered belly than backings, but rawhide works very well (chuck some big dog chew toys into hot water, unroll them and you have perfect strips of indestructible rawhide) as does sinew. Don't be frightened of sinew, it's excellent and only takes a short while to get used to. Make sure you comb it out properly, reverse-brace and leave for a LONG time. It adds a surprising amount of weight.

If your ash is a board, backing is a good move. If it's a stave, the ring under the bark is solid as rock and won't need anything if handled with care.

 

[Kieran Little]

I was wrong earlier btw, my white oak hybrid bow was 55" NTN.
But as I just posted in this forum, it is also now a pile of splinters.

 

[bearded bowyer]

Ok
so this is how I intend to go...... Two short flatbows both 61 inches long, 28 inch draw. aiming for 50lb ish draw weight. one of end grain on ash which i will back with something and the other will be hickory. Built up, but very short handle sections, one of them will have a cut away center (my friend insists on this?!?) First one is gluing up. I will post picks as I go. If they blow then thats ok because its all timber too short for longbows anyway.
I can feel the excitement growing already........

 

[Kieran Little]

Just a casual reminder that the fades from glued on handle section to limb needs to extend into the limb material depth otherwise the handle section pops off and things rapidly become painful.

 

[bearded bowyer]

BLEEEEEP!
Compression fret!!!!!!
Tillering beautifully to 20 inches and there is a compression line. On very close inspection there is a slight rippling directly along the line of the compression at a right angle to the compression line, as if there is some natural change in the wood grain itself. (I will now check for this in the future) The rippling is also visible on the belly of the bow. Quite interesting, I wonder if there had been a small change in direction of the growth rings for some reason...
Time for an experiment!!! Im going to heavily back the back and carry on trying to get it to 28 inches. ( It was only supposed to be a temporary bow anyway....)
Im also thinking about possibly bracing the compression line with a piece of something......
Remember this is now an experiment....what would you all do?

I will glue up the hickory with built up yew handle one over the weekend.

Pass me the safety goggles and hard hat please!

 

[Deleted member 7654]

I'd peek out from my secret cat nest and watch what happens.
Maybe I'd take a ton off the belly and go for a lower draw weight or add a wafer thin belly lam of something better in compression. Or maybe take a ton off and heat treat, but to be honest chrysals go much deeper than one would think, and happening at this low draw it's prob a lost cause without serious remedial action.
Del
(sent from my secret cat nest)

 

[Kieran Little]

If you're committed to the one with a compression fret, rather than shaving off and putting on a belly lam, try shaving off and putting on a back lam, either of ash if youve got some left, or of some hickory or maple.

Should (with a bit of luck) take enough strain off by altering the neutral plane to make the bow workable and lasting.

At least thats my two-penneth..

 

[bearded bowyer]

He he he
I can feel an exploding bow sometime in the future...
Just been down the garage looking at it. I'm going to try a wafer thin lemon wood insert on the belly...
I will take before, during and after photos.
Any one like to guess if it will survive??????? go on...... you know you want to.....

 

[Kieran Little]

If you've got the lemonwood then you're going to want a decent amount on the belly otherwise it wont do anything.

On a flatbow design youre probably going to want the lemonwood at about 35/40% of the limb depth to balance the stress with the ash used.

I'm sure someone will disagree with me on proportions, be ready

 

[WillS]

Have you got TBB? There's a chapter in volume 3 about dealing with chrysals. When you spot them early, making a series of pin holes along both sides of the fret line itself can solve it completely. Worth a try if youre experimenting. Forget adding anything to the back imo, but trapping might work. Making the back stronger will cause more problems, as you're asking the belly to do MORE work to balance out a heavier back, which will concentrate the stress on that one chrysal.

 

[Kieran Little]

For me, adding something to the back allows me to rejig a balance between the two woods, taking out the belly layer that has a visible chrysal, it also allows me to glue a slight reflex into the stave. Meaning it should come out as a nice laminate rather than a splintery pile of selfbow haha

 

[bearded bowyer]

OOOOOkay
here is a picture of the compression fret. It really is very very fine so I've put a pencil line across it so you can see it. Thanks Wills. I have looked at the TBB volume 3 and am going to try the needle hole thing.

In the end I decided to back it with two layers of dry wall jointing tape. Not pretty, but if it blows my head wont be taken off. It's a fibreglass mesh tape....sorry Del.
I built up the handle with a piece of bubinga and beech, looks quite nice......if it survives...here's another pic
.
I will try to get it back on the tiller Monday... and then we will see what happens.....my preciousssss...Golum,golum
'

 

[bearded bowyer]

pins holes done.....


Roll on monday.......

 

[bearded bowyer]

Back on the tillering thinning out the outer limbs and the chrysal is worse.
Pin holes not working, so Im going to splice in another piece of ash instead......
Also whilst stringing it there was a very loud crack......thorough search reveals no sign of any cracks. Had it up to 24 inches on the tiller......no sign of crack anywhere.....
This could well be doomed to failure......

 

[WillS]

Doesn't sound healthy. Sorry for suggesting the pin holes! I feel partly responsible haha! from what I read in TBB the pin hole is a technique used after final tillering as a bit of a backup at a pinch. I didn't realise you were still tillering!

Couple of things you could try at this stage, seeing as it's basically now an experimental bow:

Heat treating the chrysal heavily - this will stiffen the area and push the stresses each side so the rest of the limb has to work slightly harder, easing pressure on the chrysal

Do as you say, splicing in a new piece - probably the best option!

Make sure you find where that crack is coming from. Magnifying glass and some Danish Oil should pick up any splinters starting to pop. Wrap the area very tightly in B50 or similar, soaked in glue.

 

[bearded bowyer]

From bad to worse!!!!!
severe hinges in both fades just off the handle....
I swear the crept up on me and just appeared. will post a pic later today.
I am now strangely determined to turn this into a workable bow, ive glued a thin sliver of wood over the already re-spliced area where the cryshal was, going to do the same on the other side....it looks terrible but there is less of a hinge there....... IT WILL WORK!


This now truly a Frankenstein project....

 

[Deleted member 7654]

I sometimes think this sort of project is where we learn most and develop the tips and tricks we all need from time to time.
Keep us posted!
Del

 

[bearded bowyer]

Here is the monster.

The top limb has already been reinforced on the belly near the handle, but could do with a bit more I think, the bottom limb looks like it is about to snap just off the handle, I've reinforced it about an hour ago, just waiting for the glue to dry then will put up another picture of it on the tiller at 26 inches.
I have to warn you it isn't pretty close up.....

 

[WillS]

Ugly is good. Nothing cooler than a big hunk of patches, holes, edges and so on. Makes it look Orcish and primeval in my mind. I'd add some old black leather straps and some rivets or something when it was done. One long evil spike of horn for the top nock, and plain wood or sinew wrap for the bottom nock. Finish it with a good dark stain, roll it in dirt and sand while still wet then sand most of it off down to bare wood. Go over with a loose black wash of leather dye... Ahem. I'll go sit in the corner quietly again.